Sun comes out for Tories

lovecityhateunited said:
tories are, and always will be keep the rich rich and the poor poor.

Hmmm Sweeping statement that, statistics will not bear that out.

If you look at membership over the years you will find that many Tories have come from very working class backgrounds whilst the opposite can be said for Labour.

As for public spending cuts, the simple truth is we can't keep going on with this deficit, so whoever wins will have to cut services.
 
Why has a newspaper got to be affliated to one political party or another? Why can't it just report the actual facts without any hint of political bias?
 
Optimus Prime said:
salfordtrueblue said:
This labour goverment has put more nurses on the wards and built brand spanking new hospitals,the waiting lists are now virtually non existant and this new proposal which will see cancer patients tested within one week is a million miles away from anything Cameron lot can come up with,this fella trys to act like a gutsy leader and talks about cutbacks etc,then doesnt have the balls to say where the cutbacks will be, remember the tories opposed the creation of the NHS and for you to say theres no differance i find utter bewildering. This election is a two horse race unfortunatly and its time to stand up and be counted,dont let this lot get in by default !

You're entitled to your opinion mate, but I based what I said on considerable personal experience from within the NHS which suggests to me that things aren't necessarily as you may perceive. The most scary part from my point of view, as a politically left-thinking healthcare professional working in the NHS - who used to be proud to work in an organisation which provided free healthcare of the best quality available - is the fact that this so called Labour government is systematically privatising the NHS under our noses. Without actually telling the public. We had a meeting with a representative from the NHS management a few months back to explain to us how the structure of the NHS would be changing. The organisation will be splitting between the Service Commissioning Arm - ie: the central office-based management who decide how many nurses, doctors, etc are needed in any county or area (which would remain centrally funded), and the Service Provision Arm - ie: the people at the coal face actually working with the patients day-to-day (which will no longer necessarily be centrally funded). The idea is that the healthcare professionals within a PCT set up a what is essentially a private company, and tender for the level of service provision decided by the Commissioning Arm, competing alongside private companies. This way, the government get to drastically reduce the amount of funding they provide to the organisation whilst still insisting that it remains centrally funded. They get to keep their shiny targets, however this would see the wole ethos of the NHS destroyed. We all saw what happened to Railtrack, etc when private initiatives get brought into the public sector - profit rather than quality becomes the driving force, with sometimes drastic consequences. Unite - the Union - are petitioning their members stating that the NHS which Labour want to create is not the NHS we joined or which people have come to expect, and the one that has made us proud for so long, and you'd be amazed by the support it has received from people working within the organisation. This is a bigger problem than the public realise. Its a slippery slope towards the American model, which I don't think anyone would advocate. But you're right - the targets for waiting lists, etc do appear quite impressive. Which brings me to the next point.

Waiting lists aren't non-existant by any means, more often than not they are just circumvented by private initiatives stepping in when things look like they might be on the slide, at considerable cost to the taxpayer. I'm afraid its all about meeting targets at the moment, and the quality of care which made the NHS so great is being seriously compromised. The way appointments are organised - by giving patients choice as to where they would like to be treated - is a useful tool in the PR campaigm, and is also a very canny way of muddying the issue - shifting the blame onto the patient if the right choice is not available. As long as the NHS offer the patient an appointment at one of the available sites, it doesn't matter if the patient then turns this down due to a prefernce for another site. The target is till met, but the patient still hasn't actually been seen. These targets also put an absurd amount of pressure on already over-worked healthcare professionals, switching the focus from spending time with the patient, considering their case and ensuring they are properly looked after, to seeing as many patients as possible in as little time as possible to ensure the targets are met. In my view this has led to a considerable reduction in the attention and the quality of service the patient receives. I could tell you some horror strories resulting from this based on personal experince, but that isn't for a public forum I'm afraid.

Yes, the patient may get seen within a certain amount of time so the government can have their shiny statistics to show what a fantastic job they are doing, but the reality is that the level of service within the NHS has deteriorated markedly because there are unreasonable deadlines to meet, and is frequently performed by unmotivated staff who feel quality is being compromised to produce the kind of statisitics the government want.

I'm not adbvocating Cameron or the Tories - I can't stand them and certainly won't be voting for them - if you'd read my original post you would have seen that. I'm just stating that supporting Labour simply because they aren't the Tories is madness, and is allowing them to get away with doing whatever they want. Labour may well have created the NHS in the past, but they are tearing it apart in the present, and I for one refuse to vote for that.

(PS - Sorry for the rant!)

Salfordtrueblue - If you are actually interested in any of the issues surrounding New Labour's mismanagement of the NHS, and the redundancy of using waiting lists and timescales in which people are to be seen as arguments to support their tenure, there was quite an interesting episode of Panorama on tonight which covered many of the issues I talked about in my post above. In particular the often catastrophic consequences of Labour's decision to invite Private Finance (with the focus on making profit) into what is supposed to be a publically funded organisation (with the focus on providing a quality service) to help meet their severe, electioneering-focussed targets, at considerable cost to the taxpayer. It makes the waiting list figures look good, but its a pretty terrible direction for the NHS to be going in. This has happened under New Labour's government, and is no-one's fault but their's, I'm afraid.
 
dannybcity said:
Challenger1978 said:
LMFAO you do know that under labours watch social mobilaty has actually gone down and the gap between the rich and poor has become wider.

@Optimus Prime Brilliant posts fella.

I can't see that. I'm no fan of New Labour but if they've done anything it's try to get kids from families that traditionally wouldn't stay in education, stay in education.

Honest to god mate that's the truth, I'm one of those sad bastards that watches question time every Thursday (and the show after it) on the BBC and i occasionally watch the daily politics show and newsnight. And theres been many a Labour MP confronted live on tele that's been grilled about social mobility and the gap between the rich and the poor growing. They've admitted to it many a time, basically because there was scientific proof proving it and they couldn't say shit about it. That was before the recession kicked in.
 
Optimus Prime said:
Optimus Prime said:
You're entitled to your opinion mate, but I based what I said on considerable personal experience from within the NHS which suggests to me that things aren't necessarily as you may perceive. The most scary part from my point of view, as a politically left-thinking healthcare professional working in the NHS - who used to be proud to work in an organisation which provided free healthcare of the best quality available - is the fact that this so called Labour government is systematically privatising the NHS under our noses. Without actually telling the public. We had a meeting with a representative from the NHS management a few months back to explain to us how the structure of the NHS would be changing. The organisation will be splitting between the Service Commissioning Arm - ie: the central office-based management who decide how many nurses, doctors, etc are needed in any county or area (which would remain centrally funded), and the Service Provision Arm - ie: the people at the coal face actually working with the patients day-to-day (which will no longer necessarily be centrally funded). The idea is that the healthcare professionals within a PCT set up a what is essentially a private company, and tender for the level of service provision decided by the Commissioning Arm, competing alongside private companies. This way, the government get to drastically reduce the amount of funding they provide to the organisation whilst still insisting that it remains centrally funded. They get to keep their shiny targets, however this would see the wole ethos of the NHS destroyed. We all saw what happened to Railtrack, etc when private initiatives get brought into the public sector - profit rather than quality becomes the driving force, with sometimes drastic consequences. Unite - the Union - are petitioning their members stating that the NHS which Labour want to create is not the NHS we joined or which people have come to expect, and the one that has made us proud for so long, and you'd be amazed by the support it has received from people working within the organisation. This is a bigger problem than the public realise. Its a slippery slope towards the American model, which I don't think anyone would advocate. But you're right - the targets for waiting lists, etc do appear quite impressive. Which brings me to the next point.

Waiting lists aren't non-existant by any means, more often than not they are just circumvented by private initiatives stepping in when things look like they might be on the slide, at considerable cost to the taxpayer. I'm afraid its all about meeting targets at the moment, and the quality of care which made the NHS so great is being seriously compromised. The way appointments are organised - by giving patients choice as to where they would like to be treated - is a useful tool in the PR campaigm, and is also a very canny way of muddying the issue - shifting the blame onto the patient if the right choice is not available. As long as the NHS offer the patient an appointment at one of the available sites, it doesn't matter if the patient then turns this down due to a prefernce for another site. The target is till met, but the patient still hasn't actually been seen. These targets also put an absurd amount of pressure on already over-worked healthcare professionals, switching the focus from spending time with the patient, considering their case and ensuring they are properly looked after, to seeing as many patients as possible in as little time as possible to ensure the targets are met. In my view this has led to a considerable reduction in the attention and the quality of service the patient receives. I could tell you some horror strories resulting from this based on personal experince, but that isn't for a public forum I'm afraid.

Yes, the patient may get seen within a certain amount of time so the government can have their shiny statistics to show what a fantastic job they are doing, but the reality is that the level of service within the NHS has deteriorated markedly because there are unreasonable deadlines to meet, and is frequently performed by unmotivated staff who feel quality is being compromised to produce the kind of statisitics the government want.

I'm not adbvocating Cameron or the Tories - I can't stand them and certainly won't be voting for them - if you'd read my original post you would have seen that. I'm just stating that supporting Labour simply because they aren't the Tories is madness, and is allowing them to get away with doing whatever they want. Labour may well have created the NHS in the past, but they are tearing it apart in the present, and I for one refuse to vote for that.

(PS - Sorry for the rant!)

Salfordtrueblue - If you are actually interested in any of the issues surrounding New Labour's mismanagement of the NHS, and the redundancy of using waiting lists and timescales in which people are to be seen as arguments to support their tenure, there was quite an interesting episode of Panorama on tonight which covered many of the issues I talked about in my post above. In particular the often catastrophic consequences of Labour's decision to invite Private Finance (with the focus on making profit) into what is supposed to be a publically funded organisation (with the focus on providing a quality service) to help meet their severe, electioneering-focussed targets, at considerable cost to the taxpayer. It makes the waiting list figures look good, but its a pretty terrible direction for the NHS to be going in. This has happened under New Labour's government, and is no-one's fault but their's, I'm afraid.
wow whipped up a hornets nest here,very impressed with the length of your posts btw,i am obviously not prevy to the internal workings of the NHS,but i take your point that everything in the garden isnt rosey. I can only pass judgement on what i read and moreover from what i and my family encounter,oddly enough had to take my daughter to Trafford Hosp on Monday morning A/E the money theve spent there is quite obvious for all to see,within two hrs we had been seen by 2 doctors and after an x/ray she got the all clear. Mother (pensioner) 4 months to the day had complete knee replacement within hope hosp..major reconstruction pro well under way(not her knee,the hosp)..virtually no waiting list...currently still under physio, there is a few more instances but dont want to be reeling them off,point being i feel we have had an good service.(cataraz opp,virtually straight in).
I do apologise if i sound a little ignorant of the internal procedures regards to funding/waitng lists etc,but from a laymans view i see alot to be proud of,,,jezz feel as though im defender and chief of new labour,im not,but i'd sooner have half a cake than no cake at all......right im off to bed,thanks for the debate xxx
 
salfordtrueblue said:
Optimus Prime said:
Salfordtrueblue - If you are actually interested in any of the issues surrounding New Labour's mismanagement of the NHS, and the redundancy of using waiting lists and timescales in which people are to be seen as arguments to support their tenure, there was quite an interesting episode of Panorama on tonight which covered many of the issues I talked about in my post above. In particular the often catastrophic consequences of Labour's decision to invite Private Finance (with the focus on making profit) into what is supposed to be a publically funded organisation (with the focus on providing a quality service) to help meet their severe, electioneering-focussed targets, at considerable cost to the taxpayer. It makes the waiting list figures look good, but its a pretty terrible direction for the NHS to be going in. This has happened under New Labour's government, and is no-one's fault but their's, I'm afraid.
wow whipped up a hornets nest here,very impressed with the length of your posts btw,i am obviously not prevy to the internal workings of the NHS,but i take your point that everything in the garden isnt rosey. I can only pass judgement on what i read and moreover from what i and my family encounter,oddly enough had to take my daughter to Trafford Hosp on Monday morning A/E the money theve spent there is quite obvious for all to see,within two hrs we had been seen by 2 doctors and after an x/ray she got the all clear. Mother (pensioner) 4 months to the day had complete knee replacement within hope hosp..major reconstruction pro well under way(not her knee,the hosp)..virtually no waiting list...currently still under physio, there is a few more instances but dont want to be reeling them off,point being i feel we have had an good service.(cataraz opp,virtually straight in).
I do apologise if i sound a little ignorant of the internal procedures regards to funding/waitng lists etc,but from a laymans view i see alot to be proud of,,,jezz feel as though im defender and chief of new labour,im not,but i'd sooner have half a cake than no cake at all......right im off to bed,thanks for the debate xxx

No worries mate - sorry if I came across as a bit fierce, its just something I feel quite passionately about as the way I see it this government is systematically dismantling all that was great about the NHS, which was the organisation that until recently I was very proud to be a part of. They blag the public into believing everything is rosy - quoting their dubiously earned targets for 'proof', but the reality is not necessarily that pretty.

Any road - I'm glad you and your family have had a positive experience - there is still a lot that is good about the NHS. For the moment.

Incidentally, its very unliklely that your cateract op was done by the NHS, but they will have no doubt kept that aspect of your treatment on the quiet.

Like you said - thanks for the debate mate :)
 

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