The Colston Four

Mazzarelli's Swiss Cheese said:
I suppose the defence successfully put Colston on trial rather than the actions of the defendants to some extent? I think guilty but with no or a suspended sentence would be better in this case, but we have to accept the jury system for better or worse. Is it the fault of the presiding judge that he didn't brief them properly - ie they were there to decide if the defendants caused criminal damage or not.
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Ultimately, they weren’t just there to consider that though so it would have been entirely wrong of the judge to do that.
 
Mazzarelli's Swiss Cheese said:
I suppose the defence successfully put Colston on trial rather than the actions of the defendants to some extent? I think guilty but with no or a suspended sentence would be better in this case, but we have to accept the jury system for better or worse. Is it the fault of the presiding judge that he didn't brief them properly - ie they were there to decide if the defendants caused criminal damage or not.
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The judge probably had fuck all to do with it; when people have made their mind up, they’ve made their mind up; and yes, a conditional discharge or a nominal fine of £1 would have been the most likely outcome in sentencing I expect.
 
meltonblue said:
For anyone interested in the defence argument -

www.doughtystreet.co.uk

Edward Colston statue toppling trial - Liam Walker represents acquitted defendant | Doughty Street Chambers

Liam Walker appeared for Sage Willoughby who was tried in Bristol Crown Court, along with 3 others, for pulling down and da
www.doughtystreet.co.uk www.doughtystreet.co.uk

There’s already (unsurprisingly) so much commentary from some that really should know better (Buckland being an example).
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Three really interesting lines of argument. There’s some seriously clever fuckers at the Bar…
 
gordondaviesmoustache said:
The judge probably had fuck all to do with it; when people have made their mind up, they’ve made theur mind up; and yes, a conditional discharge or a nominal fine of £1 would have been the most likely outcome in sentencing I expect.
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Clearly in this case it was a crime of passion with mitigating circumstances. Should that be considered in arriving at a verdict though, or just in the passing (or not) of a sentence?
 
west didsblue said:
Guilty with a 1p fine would have made more sense and also made the point that having statues of slave traders is not a particularly great idea.
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That's how I see it. I suppose even just having a record for criminal damage is a serious consequence though?
 
Mazzarelli's Swiss Cheese said:
Clearly in this case it was a crime of passion with mitigating circumstances. Should that be considered in arriving at a verdict though, or just in the passing (or not) of a sentence?
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Not sure crime of passion characterises it, and that’s not a defence in English law in any event. It shouldn’t be considered as part of the verdict, no, but a jury are entitled to return whatever verdict they want.

As to sentence, any factor which mitigates the offending can (and arguably should) be taken into account. What mitigation their motives were would have very much been down to the sentencing judge and would have been very subjective, but I suspect the sentence would have been very light in this instance.
 
gordondaviesmoustache said:
Not sure crime of passion characterises it, and that’s not a defence in English law in any event. It shouldn’t be considered as part of the verdict, no, but a jury are entitled to return whatever verdict they want.

As to sentence, any factor which mitigates the offending can (and arguably should) be taken into account. What mitigation their motives were would have very much been down to the sentencing judge and would have been very subjective, but I suspect would have been very light in this instance.
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Yep, we have to accept the jury verdict - to do otherwise would be a further slide towards mob rule and undermining the law I suppose. It's a shame the police and cps didn't realise the defendants hadn't commited a crime though - could have saved a lot of time
 
gordondaviesmoustache said:
The judge probably had fuck all to do with it; when people have made their mind up, they’ve made their mind up; and yes, a conditional discharge or a nominal fine of £1 would have been the most likely outcome in sentencing I expect.
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Why / how would the jury ensure that outcome?
 
Mazzarelli's Swiss Cheese said:
Yep, we have to accept the jury verdict - to do otherwise would be a further slide towards mob rule and undermining the law I suppose. It's a shame the police and cps didn't realise the defendants hadn't commited a crime though - could have saved a lot of time
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On the face of it, they absolutely have committed the crime of criminal damage. Without question. In this instance absolutely no criticism should be directed to the CPS, although in general terms they are pretty wank.
 
Mazzarelli's Swiss Cheese said:
Yep, we have to accept the jury verdict - to do otherwise would be a further slide towards mob rule and undermining the law I suppose. It's a shame the police and cps didn't realise the defendants hadn't commited a crime though - could have saved a lot of time
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It's a bigger shame that when they made the statue a submarine, the trailing rope wasn't caught round the ankles of one of the perpetrators.
 
gordondaviesmoustache said:
Contemporary vernacular couldn’t be classified as archaic, surely?
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Only appears to have fallen out of usage in the middle of the last century, presumably at a time when it was being heard and read by the general public in popular media; was that perhaps a reason why it changed? I suppose its continued usage in society reflects how little contact there actually is between the laity and the professionals.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Milord
 
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