The Conservative Party

[robbieh]

Spain which by all measures is way poorer than the UK, charge students 800 euros a year for tuition fees.

 

[Chippy_boy]

Well that's because the scale of university entry is vastly higher than it was in the 80s when it was the preserve of a few. The debate around funding higher education is whether it ought to be funded from general taxation - in which cases taxes will have to go up significantly, or whether those go should fund it themselves. What has been abysmally handled is the idea of there being loans, when in effect they're really just a slightly higher rate of tax for university graduates, and should have been done that explicitly that way.

It isn't a matter at all of revenues being less, it's a matter of the number of students being vastly more.

Like anything, it's a choice, but all things do have to be paid for, and income tax alone is no kind of measure. The UK overall sits somewhere around the middle in European terms overall, so absolutely there could be scope for higher taxation if the electorate want it, or lower if they prefer that instead.

What is annoying is the way some try and paint this in moral terms, as though taxing and spending is inherently a matter of good versus evil. It's merely a question of trying to determine the most equitable and effective way of modest redistribution, nothing more.

The money is being spent elsewhere as well. NHS spending is up 600% in real terms since the 1960's. That's over £100bn *more*, when the entire government spending is only circa £800bn.

 

[Chippy_boy]

Spain which by all measures is way poorer than the UK, charge students 800 euros a year for tuition fees.

And everyone's rushing to those world-renowned Spanish universities are they. Oxford, Cambridge, MIT, Harvard, Yale, Caltec and er Barcelona???

Their *best* university ranks 135th on the world table. Brilliant.

 

[Henkeman]

The money is being spent elsewhere as well. NHS spending is up 600% in real terms since the 1960's. That's over £100bn *more*, when the entire government spending is only circa £800bn.

Yep.

Public spending as a proportion of GDP is about the same now as it was in the peak of the Blair years, which will probably surprise a few. After that of course, it rocketed under Brown, partly through policy and increasingly due to the financial crash after that.

What isn't the case is the narrative of evil Tories slashing to the bone, the decline in spending was down to so much of the tax revenues having to go towards funding the borrowing post that crash.

 

[urban genie]

They would. You saying health and education should be properly funded is very cliche, as your version of properly of properly funded would be very different from someone else's. When you start applying figures and means of funding to those, you have policies.

My point is some people wouldn't want health and education properly funded, they would expect people to sort it out themselves and private enterprise to supply it, if you could not afford it then tough tits to you.

For me a civil society should provide 5 basic things to it's citizens

• Health care free and avialable
• Education
• Basic utilities at affordable levels, water, sewage management, public transport, power.
• Affordablw accomodation (a roof over everyoneshead)
• Security - policing, fire services and a defense force.

Add to that we should be embracing a collective international camaraderie for the betterment of the planet not individual self interest , but that's for another thread.

 

[Henkeman]

Spain which by all measures is way poorer than the UK, charge students 800 euros a year for tuition fees.

Aside from the point about the quality of their universities, they also have a youth unemployment rate of 33%.

 

[robbieh]

And everyone's rushing to those world-renowned Spanish universities are they. Oxford, Cambridge, MIT, Harvard, Yale, Caltec and er Barcelona???

Their *best* university ranks 135th on the world table. Brilliant.

OK not impressed by their universities.

Homeless figures
UK. 307,000
Spain 40,000

Put that in your Tory pipe and smoke it.

 

[CityStu]

My point is some people wouldn't want health and education properly funded, they would expect people to sort it out themselves and private enterprise to supply it, if you could not afford it then tough tits to you.

So properly funded means entirely paid for by the public purse? Every education course and every medical complaint should be covered by the taxpayer?

 

[Chippy_boy]

My point is some people wouldn't want health and education properly funded, they would expect people to sort it out themselves and private enterprise to supply it, if you could not afford it then tough tits to you.

Which people would those be?

There might be a few ideologues in the Tory party who think this, but the vast majority on both sides of the house do not. OK, there may be differences of opinion as to how to *provide* free healthcare for all, but I cannot think of a solitary MP who is in favour of scrapping free healthcare and saying "tough tits to you". If you genuinely think that's a mainstream view in the Tory party, you've been well and truly brainwashed by someone. You've not been drinking with Fumble, have you?

 

[Chippy_boy]

OK not impressed by their universities.

Homeless figures
UK. 307,000
Spain 40,000

Put that in your Tory pipe and smoke it.

Miles of chorizo eaten per year:

Spain = 8,129
UK 3

And other useful stats. Shall we move on to Portugal next?