The General Election Thread

[Lucky13]

After the success of the grave stone pledges , Ed the Red reveals some more policies.

Anyone on Twitter , have a look a #edstone.

 

[Rascal]

"Controls on immigration"

?

Either Labour have adopted a policy of leaving the EU or they're just writing bullshit promises about policy areas over which they have no control.

Which is it?

My point as Labour not being a Socialist party is answered thus.

Socialism is internationalist and therefore immigration controls are contrary to Socialist ideology.

What Labour no longers eschews is that Socialism is an ideology based on eradicating class divide by empowering the proleteriat to overthrow the elite. The current Labour party does little but perpetuate the status quo as favoured by small "c" conservatives and the neo Liberal elite.

Immigration controls were much, much tighter than today between 1945 and 1951.

So was rationing, now called foodbanks.

Dont know if your grasp of history extends as far back as 1939 but from then on for a few years there were a few disagreements across Europe which caused the odd problem here and there. Thankfully for the UK some of the Socialist ideology introduced in the years from 45 to 51 has endured the passage of time and is now integral to the UK way of life. How the Tories hate living in a semi socialist state that they can do little to change without stirring the latent socialist principles of the masses.

 

[gordondaviesmoustache]

My point as Labour not being a Socialist party is answered thus.

Socialism is internationalist and therefore immigration controls are contrary to Socialist ideology.

What Labour no longers eschews is that Socialism is an ideology based on eradicating class divide by empowering the proleteriat to overthrow the elite. The current Labour party does little but perpetuate the status quo as favoured by small "c" conservatives and the neo Liberal elite.

Immigration controls were much, much tighter than today between 1945 and 1951.

So was rationing, now called foodbanks.

Dont know if your grasp of history extends as far back as 1939 but from then on for a few years there were a few disagreements across Europe which caused the odd problem here and there. Thankfully for the UK some of the Socialist ideology introduced in the years from 45 to 51 has endured the passage of time and is now integral to the UK way of life. How the Tories hate living in a semi socialist state that they can do little to change without stirring the latent socialist principles of the masses.

The latent socialist principles of the masses! Karl would be proud of you! Not sure if he'd agree with you when casting his eyes at Generation X-Factor, mind. Still, keep fighting the good fight, comrade.

 

[Damocles]

You think the current system is well-conceived and democratic? Or for that matter, fit for purpose?

No, but this isn't the argument we're having.

There are also (I guess) over ten million people under the age of 18 who don't have any representation by law, in the way you refer to it. In actual fact, extending the logic of your argument further, as the youngest MP is (I believe) 30, then in actual fact the majority of the 32 million people to which you refer have no representation from someone of their own generation presently.

This isn't a fair judgement as we've had no elections for 5 years. The Baby of the House was 25 at the last election, but the greater point remains that it is possible for any tax paying adult to stand and be represented in Parliament.

I find your postulation about running the country being analogous to running a corporate entity to be both baffling and completely misconceived, particularly bearing in mind your recent comments about KFC in another thread. Running a company like Microsoft means your main priority is to the shareholders of that company, who theoretically at least, can remove you from office at any time. Being an MP, short of convictions for criminality or being declared bankrupt (I think), means you (theoretically) have unfettered powers as an MP for a term of parliament, included in which is the power to determine laws, not just for those who voted for you, nor just for your constituents in general, but also for wider society. The distinction between that and running a corporate body should be clear to anyone applying their mind to it.

The shareholders of a company cannot remove you at any time, they can only remove you when the Board calls for a vote on your position. That is no different from how Parliamentary recall works now. WE are the shareholders of the UK and the general election is the AGM where every board member is up for re-election.

I'm using the corporate analogy because it shows the ridiculousness of your point that anybody who manages something must also have long experience of participating in that area. Jose Mourinho would probably beg to differ.

You are perfectly at liberty to use pejorative terms to describe my suggestion, but the reality is the current system is broken. I have arrived at a suggestion in order to try and mend that system, having set out my reasons for doing so, and why I believe it would work better.

Quite simply, I believe parliament would be a much better place if it wasn't so full of people who've only ever been politicians. Perhaps you feel the opposite.

You have proposed an entirely undemocratic ideal working under the presumption that from age and experience comes competence despite millions of examples in "the real world" that show this to be not the case at all.

 

[whp.blue]

Immigration controls were much, much tighter than today between 1945 and 1951.

Clement Richard Attlee was one hell of a racist bastard though with a name like that he even sounds like a Conservative

What do you expect from a middle-class, privately educated son of a solicitor?

Power to the people!

Some things never change

Edward Samuel Milliband Middle-class son of a Sociologist Marxist Author

 

[Rascal]

Clement Richard Attlee was one hell of a racist bastard though with a name like that he even sounds like a Conservative

What do you expect from a middle-class, privately educated son of a solicitor?

Power to the people!

Some things never change

Edward Samuel Milliband Middle-class son of a Sociologist Marxist Author

Why is it that Socialists who are deemed to be middle class are scoffed at whilst working class Tories are seen as aspirants.

Class surely should not have any bearing on belief

 

[whp.blue]

My point as Labour not being a Socialist party is answered thus.

Socialism is internationalist and therefore immigration controls are contrary to Socialist ideology.

What Labour no longers eschews is that Socialism is an ideology based on eradicating class divide by empowering the proleteriat to overthrow the elite. The current Labour party does little but perpetuate the status quo as favoured by small "c" conservatives and the neo Liberal elite.

Immigration controls were much, much tighter than today between 1945 and 1951.

So was rationing, now called foodbanks.

Dont know if your grasp of history extends as far back as 1939 but from then on for a few years there were a few disagreements across Europe which caused the odd problem here and there. Thankfully for the UK some of the Socialist ideology introduced in the years from 45 to 51 has endured the passage of time and is now integral to the UK way of life. How the Tories hate living in a semi socialist state that they can do little to change without stirring the latent socialist principles of the masses.

good job that didn't come up in my History A level

I was always under the misconception that Rationing was a mechanism for sharing limited resources and was distributed through the existing network of shops and the customers not only have to produce the required ration book but also the required monetary compensation to the shopkeeper.
Equally whilst I accept I know even less about food banks I have laboured under the misconception that they were charitable hand outs normally made in community halls etc. Where no monetary compensation changed hands, in actual fact diametrically opposite to the way rationing worked.

 

[whp.blue]

What do you expect from a middle-class, privately educated son of a solicitor?

Power to the people!

Some things never change

Edward Samuel Milliband Middle-class son of a Sociologist Marxist Author

Why is it that Socialists who are deemed to be middle class are scoffed at whilst working class Tories are seen as aspirants.

Class surely should not have any bearing on belief

Nothing to do with class really it's about bare faced hypocrisy.
Only matters when some one like Ed pretends to be one thing i.e. man of the people when you could hardly be further from the truth and then has the hypocrisy to criticise a Conservative MP about their privileged private education whilst failing to acknowledge he went to the very same school.

Ed milliband should change his middle name to Hypocrite

 

[gordondaviesmoustache]

I'm using the corporate analogy because it shows the ridiculousness of your point that anybody who manages something must also have long experience of participating in that area. Jose Mourinho would probably beg to differ.

You are completely misrepresenting my point and therefore being intellectually dishonest. I didn't say anyone who manages something must also have experience in participating in that area. I drew a distinction between being a representative in a democracy and other, commercial vocations. I say politicians are different, given the nature of their role and the power the wield, individually and collectively to shape and mould our lives. I made this distinction manifestly clear. That you felt the need to misrepresent this is most unhelpful. So for the avoidance of doubt, I DON'T say anyone who manages something must also have experience in participating in that area. Jose Mourinho being a good example of someone who excels in his field without the same experience as participating in that field as his peers.

The shareholders of a company cannot remove you at any time, they can only remove you when the Board calls for a vote on your position. That is no different from how Parliamentary recall works now. WE are the shareholders of the UK and the general election is the AGM where every board member is up for re-election.

You are completely wrong about the power of shareholders. If they wish to remove an officer of a company in sufficient numbers then they can by calling an EGM. Those officers serve the best interest of those shareholders. That is their primary function. The notion that those shareholders, who own the company, cannot remove those officers at will is utterly nonsensical given that obligation. That is especially the case with privately owned companies, which I expect you excluded from your thinking in that post. Your analogy, therefore, is anomalous.

 

[dobobobo]

Some things never change

Edward Samuel Milliband Middle-class son of a Sociologist Marxist Author

Why is it that Socialists who are deemed to be middle class are scoffed at whilst working class Tories are seen as aspirants.

Class surely should not have any bearing on belief

Nothing to do with class really it's about bare faced hypocrisy.
Only matters when some one like Ed pretends to be one thing i.e. man of the people when you could hardly be further from the truth and then has the hypocrisy to criticise a Conservative MP about their privileged private education whilst failing to acknowledge he went to the very same school.

Ed milliband should change his middle name to Hypocrite

Yep, George Osbourne and Harriet Harman went to the same indepent school. (Albeit split by gender)

 

[whp.blue]

Why is it that Socialists who are deemed to be middle class are scoffed at whilst working class Tories are seen as aspirants.

Class surely should not have any bearing on belief

Nothing to do with class really it's about bare faced hypocrisy.
Only matters when some one like Ed pretends to be one thing i.e. man of the people when you could hardly be further from the truth and then has the hypocrisy to criticise a Conservative MP about their privileged private education whilst failing to acknowledge he went to the very same school.

Ed milliband should change his middle name to Hypocrite

Yep, George Osbourne and Harriet Harman went to the same indepent school. (Albeit split by gender)

Oops I thought it was Ed
Wrong again

 

[Chancy Termites]

"Controls on immigration"

?

Either Labour have adopted a policy of leaving the EU or they're just writing bullshit promises about policy areas over which they have no control.

Which is it?

My point as Labour not being a Socialist party is answered thus.

Socialism is internationalist and therefore immigration controls are contrary to Socialist ideology.

What Labour no longers eschews is that Socialism is an ideology based on eradicating class divide by empowering the proleteriat to overthrow the elite. The current Labour party does little but perpetuate the status quo as favoured by small "c" conservatives and the neo Liberal elite.

Not the point. As members of the EU, we are signed up to free movement from one EU country to another. Labour want us to remain in the EU; furthermore they have said they don't want to give the British people any say over our ongoing membership. Therefore, Labour want to retain the current position of allowing any and any EU citizen the right to live in the UK, should they so choose.

This means that when he says he will control immigration he is either a liar, an imbecile, or both.

Which is it?

 

[whp.blue]

"Controls on immigration"

?

Either Labour have adopted a policy of leaving the EU or they're just writing bullshit promises about policy areas over which they have no control.

Which is it?

My point as Labour not being a Socialist party is answered thus.

Socialism is internationalist and therefore immigration controls are contrary to Socialist ideology.

What Labour no longers eschews is that Socialism is an ideology based on eradicating class divide by empowering the proleteriat to overthrow the elite. The current Labour party does little but perpetuate the status quo as favoured by small "c" conservatives and the neo Liberal elite.

Not the point. As members of the EU, we are signed up to free movement from one EU country to another. Labour want us to remain in the EU; furthermore they have said they don't want to give the British people any say over our ongoing membership. Therefore, Labour want to retain the current position of allowing any and any EU citizen the right to live in the UK, should they so choose.

This means that when he says he will control immigration he is either a liar, an imbecile, or both.

Which is it?

If you are running a poll Can I go for Both?

 

[Lucky13]

Nothing to do with class really it's about bare faced hypocrisy.
Only matters when some one like Ed pretends to be one thing i.e. man of the people when you could hardly be further from the truth and then has the hypocrisy to criticise a Conservative MP about their privileged private education whilst failing to acknowledge he went to the very same school.

Ed milliband should change his middle name to Hypocrite

Yep, George Osbourne and Harriet Harman went to the same indepent school. (Albeit split by gender)

Oops I thought it was Ed
Wrong again

Classic socialist hypocrisy.

<a class="postlink" href="http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-3035714/You-posh-Osborne-tells-Harman-class-attacks-wear-went-private-school.html" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;">http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article ... chool.html</a>

 

[dobobobo]

Nothing to do with class really it's about bare faced hypocrisy.
Only matters when some one like Ed pretends to be one thing i.e. man of the people when you could hardly be further from the truth and then has the hypocrisy to criticise a Conservative MP about their privileged private education whilst failing to acknowledge he went to the very same school.

Ed milliband should change his middle name to Hypocrite

Yep, George Osbourne and Harriet Harman went to the same indepent school. (Albeit split by gender)

Oops I thought it was Ed
Wrong again

I got your meaning though.

By no means am I Conservative but I agree with Osbourne that it is wearing thin.

 

[urmston]

Ed is finishing very badly.

He's showing us what an ineffective PM he would be.

 

[dobobobo]

Ed is finishing very badly.

He's showing us what an ineffective PM he would be.

My thoughts too. He made it quite clear on Thursday night on Question Time. It's either his way or he doesn't want to know.

 

[Len Rum]

"Controls on immigration"

?

Either Labour have adopted a policy of leaving the EU or they're just writing bullshit promises about policy areas over which they have no control.

Which is it?

My point as Labour not being a Socialist party is answered thus.

Socialism is internationalist and therefore immigration controls are contrary to Socialist ideology.

What Labour no longers eschews is that Socialism is an ideology based on eradicating class divide by empowering the proleteriat to overthrow the elite. The current Labour party does little but perpetuate the status quo as favoured by small "c" conservatives and the neo Liberal elite.

Not the point. As members of the EU, we are signed up to free movement from one EU country to another. Labour want us to remain in the EU; furthermore they have said they don't want to give the British people any say over our ongoing membership. Therefore, Labour want to retain the current position of allowing any and any EU citizen the right to live in the UK, should they so choose.

This means that when he says he will control immigration he is either a liar, an imbecile, or both.

Which is it?

On the principle of free movement of citizens within the EU the Tories and Labour both accept that this cannot be changed. Both have policies on restricting EU migrant access to benefits ( the Tories being a bit harsher), but both of them accept the PRINCIPLE will not be amended by the EU.
So call me Dave who is pro EU can not control immigration within the EU any better than Ed

 

[Prestwich_Blue]

Ed is finishing very badly.

He's showing us what an ineffective PM he would be.

Cameron's had five years of showing us that.

 

[Chancy Termites]

My point as Labour not being a Socialist party is answered thus.

Socialism is internationalist and therefore immigration controls are contrary to Socialist ideology.

What Labour no longers eschews is that Socialism is an ideology based on eradicating class divide by empowering the proleteriat to overthrow the elite. The current Labour party does little but perpetuate the status quo as favoured by small "c" conservatives and the neo Liberal elite.

Not the point. As members of the EU, we are signed up to free movement from one EU country to another. Labour want us to remain in the EU; furthermore they have said they don't want to give the British people any say over our ongoing membership. Therefore, Labour want to retain the current position of allowing any and any EU citizen the right to live in the UK, should they so choose.

This means that when he says he will control immigration he is either a liar, an imbecile, or both.

Which is it?

On the principle of free movement of citizens within the EU the Tories and Labour both accept that this cannot be changed. Both have policies on restricting EU migrant access to benefits ( the Tories being a bit harsher), but both of them accept the PRINCIPLE will not be amended by the EU.
So call me Dave who is pro EU can not control immigration within the EU any better than Ed

The fact that Cameron is making the same error of logic doesn't make Miliband any less wrong.