The General Election Thread

[The perfect fumble]

If the SNP ran in Manchester they'd probably win

Probably true of most of the Northern industrial cities.

I feel more in common with a working class Scot than i do an English home counties fella

That's because the SNP taps into the social demoratic heartland New Labour abandoned.

 

[Ancient Citizen]

If the SNP ran in Manchester they'd probably win

Probably true of most of the Northern industrial cities.

I feel more in common with a working class Scot than i do an English home counties fella

That's because the SNP taps into the social demoratic heartland New Labour abandoned.

And that very heartland was abandoned by Blair, and resulted in his winning three elections.
Old style socialism, propounded by Foot and Kinnock, was anathema to most, Blair realised this and
formed new Labour. Any return to the old style would consign Labour to history.

 

[gordondaviesmoustache]

Probably true of most of the Northern industrial cities.

I feel more in common with a working class Scot than i do an English home counties fella

That's because the SNP taps into the social demoratic heartland New Labour abandoned.

And that very heartland was abandoned by Blair, and resulted in his winning three elections.
Old style socialism, propounded by Foot and Kinnock, was anathema to most, Blair realised this and
formed new Labour. Any return to the old style would consign Labour to history.

I just don't get why people in the left fail to grasp this simple point. Under our current electoral system, where do they see these seats for a socialist party coming? I wish someone would explain that to me.

 

[bugsyblue]

Not sure if anything like this has been posted but interesting test to see which party is best aligned with your views. Was quite surprised by my results.

http://www.38degrees.org.uk/page/-/html/votematch.html

 

[Rascal]

I just don't get why people in the left fail to grasp this simple point. Under our current electoral system, where do they see these seats for a socialist party coming? I wish someone would explain that to me.

Most of my friends are Socialist and we would like a Socialist to vote for rather than having to vote for the current Neo-liberal favouring Labour party. If we think that then there must be plenty of others as sick of the Labour party as we are.

 

[TommoCTID]

Im voting UKIP

 

[The perfect fumble]

I just don't get why people in the left fail to grasp this simple point. Under our current electoral system, where do they see these seats for a socialist party coming? I wish someone would explain that to me.

Most of my friends are Socialist and we would like a Socialist to vote for rather than having to vote for the current Neo-liberal favouring Labour party. If we think that then there must be plenty of others as sick of the Labour party as we are.

Labour might be many things, but neo-liberal isn't one of them.

 

[gordondaviesmoustache]

I just don't get why people in the left fail to grasp this simple point. Under our current electoral system, where do they see these seats for a socialist party coming? I wish someone would explain that to me.

Most of my friends are Socialist and we would like a Socialist to vote for rather than having to vote for the current Neo-liberal favouring Labour party. If we think that then there must be plenty of others as sick of the Labour party as we are.

Yes, but the point is that the vast majority of people who are active politically and who consider themselves to be 'socialists' presently vote Lavour, albeit reluctantly. Some will abstain, but not in meaningful numbers, I reckon. Many others who currently do vote Labour, or are considering doing so, emphatically would not if the party shifted discernibly to the left, especially in marginal constituencies where general elections are won and lost.

There simply aren't enough people, or anything like, to support such an outcome, irrespective of what your close circle of friends think; not the most scientific of surveys, it should be said.

 

[Ancient Citizen]

That's because the SNP taps into the social demoratic heartland New Labour abandoned.

And that very heartland was abandoned by Blair, and resulted in his winning three elections.
Old style socialism, propounded by Foot and Kinnock, was anathema to most, Blair realised this and
formed new Labour. Any return to the old style would consign Labour to history.

I just don't get why people in the left fail to grasp this simple point. Under our current electoral system, where do they see these seats for a socialist party coming? I wish someone would explain that to me.

I don't get it either. Plenty of people on here are constantly saying that Labour are not socialist, or not socialist enough, they are just Tory lite, in the deluded belief that the people who voted for it had it completely wrong, despite it being very successful three times on the trot.
Personally, I don't give a shit, this constant urging to force the party leftwards only helps it's opponents.

 

[Rascal]

I just don't get why people in the left fail to grasp this simple point. Under our current electoral system, where do they see these seats for a socialist party coming? I wish someone would explain that to me.

Most of my friends are Socialist and we would like a Socialist to vote for rather than having to vote for the current Neo-liberal favouring Labour party. If we think that then there must be plenty of others as sick of the Labour party as we are.

Labour might be many things, but neo-liberal isn't one of them.

Maybe not to you. But to me any Labour party that does not call for renationalisation, supports austerity, courts big business and refuses to repeal anti democratic union laws is neo-liberal.

 

[Rascal]

Yes, but the point is that the vast majority of people who are active politically and who consider themselves to be 'socialists' presently vote Lavour, albeit reluctantly. Some will abstain, but not in meaningful numbers, I reckon. Many others who currently do vote Labour, or are considering doing so, emphatically would not if the party shifted discernibly to the left, especially in marginal constituencies where general elections are won and lost.

There simply aren't enough people, or anything like, to support such an outcome, irrespective of what your close circle of friends think; not the most scientific of surveys, it should be said.

My unscientific survey regardless, an overwhelming majority of UK citizens would like the railways to be renationalised for instance, but Labour refuses.

Until we have a proper Socialist party to vote for we cannot even begin to speculate on what level of support it may garner.

I happen to think a majority of the UK populace lean towards Social Democrat as is shown by the support for the treasured national institutions we have left. We need the Social Democratic concensus reinstating for the good of the nation as a whole.

 

[i kne albert davy]

If the SNP ran in Manchester they'd probably win

Probably true of most of the Northern industrial cities.

I feel more in common with a working class Scot than i do an English home counties fella

Never had you down as a nationalist well you live and learn people will be calling you a little Scotlander next.

 

[Prestwich_Blue]

That's because the SNP taps into the social demoratic heartland New Labour abandoned.

And that very heartland was abandoned by Blair, and resulted in his winning three elections.
Old style socialism, propounded by Foot and Kinnock, was anathema to most, Blair realised this and
formed new Labour. Any return to the old style would consign Labour to history.

I just don't get why people in the left fail to grasp this simple point. Under our current electoral system, where do they see these seats for a socialist party coming? I wish someone would explain that to me.

Whatever else you could say about Thatcher, she succeeded in moving the political spectrum to the point where the Labour party now routinely espouses policies that would have been rejected as too right wing by pre-Thatcher Tories. Some would say that she understood the aspirations of ordinary people and others would say the Lasbour party pathetically surrendered their traditional political ground.

 

[gordondaviesmoustache]

And that very heartland was abandoned by Blair, and resulted in his winning three elections.
Old style socialism, propounded by Foot and Kinnock, was anathema to most, Blair realised this and
formed new Labour. Any return to the old style would consign Labour to history.

I just don't get why people in the left fail to grasp this simple point. Under our current electoral system, where do they see these seats for a socialist party coming? I wish someone would explain that to me.

I don't get it either. Plenty of people on here are constantly saying that Labour are not socialist, or not socialist enough, they are just Tory lite, in the deluded belief that the people who voted for it had it completely wrong, despite it being very successful three times on the trot.
Personally, I don't give a shit, this constant urging to force the party leftwards only helps it's opponents.

Quite simply, it's people getting what they want to happen confused with what actually will happen. They think because they are socialists that everyone else would be, if only they could be shown the errors of their ways. It's a postulation that is contrary to the evidence before their eyes in terms if voting patterns since 1979 and as such is without any credibility. They seem unable to appreciate that Middle-England, in the main, determines the outcome of general elections in this country, not least because of the electoral system we operate, and also because who they vote for can be subject to greater change, especially the lower middle-classes. This is a social grouping that is essentially conservative (with a small 'c') and has shown little or no appetite for socialism for over a generation, or arguably ever if you look at them in the round. The suggestion that they are suddenly going to change in that sense is utterly insane. It's fucking nuts, it really is.

 

[urmston]

Most of my friends are Socialist and we would like a Socialist to vote for rather than having to vote for the current Neo-liberal favouring Labour party. If we think that then there must be plenty of others as sick of the Labour party as we are.

Labour might be many things, but neo-liberal isn't one of them.

Maybe not to you. But to me any Labour party that does not call for renationalisation, supports austerity, courts big business and refuses to repeal anti democratic union laws is neo-liberal.

There's never really been anything liberal, neo or otherwise, about Labour.

Like communists and other authoritarians, Labour wants a big state.

They prefer high taxes so that the state can decide how to spend everyone's money.

They don't trust the people to spend their own money in a wise manner.

They are, and have always been, illiberal.

And they've had 5 MPs jailed for stealing our money.

 

[gordondaviesmoustache]

Yes, but the point is that the vast majority of people who are active politically and who consider themselves to be 'socialists' presently vote Lavour, albeit reluctantly. Some will abstain, but not in meaningful numbers, I reckon. Many others who currently do vote Labour, or are considering doing so, emphatically would not if the party shifted discernibly to the left, especially in marginal constituencies where general elections are won and lost.

There simply aren't enough people, or anything like, to support such an outcome, irrespective of what your close circle of friends think; not the most scientific of surveys, it should be said.

My unscientific survey regardless, an overwhelming majority of UK citizens would like the railways to be renationalised for instance, but Labour refuses.

Until we have a proper Socialist party to vote for we cannot even begin to speculate on what level of support it may garner.

I happen to think a majority of the UK populace lean towards Social Democrat as is shown by the support for the treasured national institutions we have left. We need the Social Democratic concensus reinstating for the good of the nation as a whole.

Your example of the railways, whist correct (and I include myself in that grouping) is more an example of the pragmatic nature of the English electorate. Many people who are right wing believe that the railways should be nationalised because it would work better, not because they are socialists or would want wholesale nationalisation of other, large institutions.

I agree with what you say about needing and deserving a proper socialist electoral option, but that isn't going to happen under our current wholly unrepresentative and inequitable electoral system.

fwiw id expect it to garner similar support as UKIP, with ultimately about as much chance of electoral success, and would, as I've previously indicted, split the left of centre vote and weaken Labour; therefore strengthening the Tories.

No nirvana anytime soon, I'm afraid.

 

[Rascal]

Like communists and other authoritarians, Labour wants a big state.

.

Communism is not authoritarian, it is complete Democracy down to its most basic level.

Think resources allocated democratically by need rather than want.

Its not hard pal even if your brain is stuck in some weird Macarthyite timewarp

We already have a big state btw, Communism would not shrink the state but make its apparatus more democratic. What you want is small state no say politics.

 

[whp.blue]

Most of my friends are Socialist and we would like a Socialist to vote for rather than having to vote for the current Neo-liberal favouring Labour party. If we think that then there must be plenty of others as sick of the Labour party as we are.

Labour might be many things, but neo-liberal isn't one of them.

Maybe not to you. But to me any Labour party that does not call for renationalisation, supports austerity, courts big business and refuses to repeal anti democratic union laws is neo-liberal.

That is not Neo-liberalism that is just realism If they don't move to the centre of British politics they have about as much chance of gaining power as the Monster raving looney party

Despite what a few left wing activists say there is no appetite from Voters in Britain for left wing policies

 

[Ancient Citizen]

Quite simply, it's people getting what they want to happen confused with what actually will happen. They think because they are socialists that everyone else would be, if only they could be shown the errors of their ways. It's a postulation that is contrary to the evidence before their eyes in terms if voting patterns since 1979 and as such is without any credibility. They seem unable to appreciate that Middle-England, in the main, determines the outcome of general elections in this country, not least because of the electoral system we operate, and also because who they vote for can be subject to greater change, especially the lower middle-classes. This is a social grouping that is essentially conservative (with a small 'c') and has shown little or no appetite for socialism for over a generation, or arguably ever if you look at them in the round. The suggestion that they are suddenly going to change in that sense is utterly insane. It's fucking nuts, it really is.[/quote]

I agree, the evidence is there staring them in the face, and yet they still cling to the belief that a far left party will result in far more support for Labour. The middle England point is pertinent, Blair directed all his considerable, (at the time) charm and persona at this particular demographic with spectacular success, yet now gets called fit to burn by lefties for being successful at it.
As I said, it bothers me not a jot, but if Labour hadn't shackled itself with some quasi-Marxist Hampstead millionaire, it would certainly have pissed the forthcoming election by some margin.

 

[Rascal]

Your example of the railways, whist correct (and I include myself in that grouping) is more an example of the pragmatic nature of the English electorate. Many people who are right wing believe that the railways should be nationalised because it would work better, not because they are socialists or would want wholesale nationalisation of other, large institutions.

I agree with what you say about needing and deserving a proper socialist electoral option, but that isn't going to happen under our current wholly unrepresentative and inequitable electoral system.

fwiw id expect it to garner similar support as UKIP, with ultimately about as much chance of electoral success, and would, as I've previously indicted, split the left of centre vote and weaken Labour; therefore strengthening the Tories.

No nirvana anytime soon, I'm afraid.

If politics continues to fragment as it is then after this election i also see the Tories splitting into the One nation small C and far right pro UKIP wings. Labour could well fragment into whats left of its pale imitation and a new further left Green/Socialist alliance.

No Government under the FPTP system would ever have a majority again and coalition would be the norm. Im sure as a wishy washy Lib Dem that appeals to you. Permanent power for the most non descript party in UK politics.

If this did occur at least we would all have a choice of party rather than vote as i do now which is always to stop the Tories rather than follow what i believe.