The Labour Government

[BrianW]

When calculating 'net cost', does it take into account the people working for Tesco et al, who contribute to corporate profits but are on such shit pay that the state has to subsidise their wages by way of benefits - e.g. Universal Credit, Housing Benefit? After all, without the contribution of such people, the corporates would not make as much profit, and thus would have to reduce their dividends and/or reduce the fat salaries of directors and executives.

 

[hilts]

Your knickers need to be in a twist. And I’m still waiting for to back up your assertion that our aging demographic profile and low birthrate are not a problem. To get more births we need more people not less.

Fertility rates continue to fall, but number of births rise

Fertility rates are falling in Great Britain, as in many parts of the world. The number of babies continues to rise, however, thanks to population increase.

news.sky.com

When did I say it wasn't a problem? I said I find your solution of just carrying on as we are unacceptably damaging. I can't keep having discussions with someone who can't grasp the basics of a two way conversation.

 

[Hertzblue]

Yet again, you provide no counter arguments. I encourage you to do better.

I provide no counter arguments ...
David Miles putting a number on your immigration Ponzi scheme of a further 20 million migrants in the next 40 years - I hear your obfuscation on it but no clarity as to whether that's where you still want to go .
Miles says that is unsustainable, so do I , so I imagine does anybody with any common sense but if you support it where is your counter argument that it could be sustainable ? How could it be done ? If it cannot be done then your demographic Ponzi scheme argument is done is it not ?

 

[Hertzblue]

Me, me, me.

It's to stop people who escaped being tortured being sent back to their torturers.

I guess that doesn't bother you.

So we must save them from being returned to the type of oppressive Socialist state you would impose on us - The irony !

 

[Hertzblue]

"We didn't choose anything" doesn't quite ring true.

We chose to leave the EU, with its ready supply of young workers, most of whom eventually went home to their own country (to be replaced by others doing the same). You might not like the consequences - maybe it wasn't the Brexit you wanted - but you can't pretend it was a consequence-free decision.

Maybe you mocked the Question Time woman who asked who would be serving us our coffee in Pret? Who would be serving us our sandwiches?

Answer: Refugees.

How companies are helping refugees into employment - Raconteur

Three business leaders explain why hiring refugees is good for business and how more companies can help them to find employment

www.raconteur.net

Who'd have thought all these people were coming to work in catering?

View attachment 167554

With 90,000 jobs in the Hospitality industry lost since Reeves' Budget ( and rising ) then we can't need them any more.
Maybe I should give her more credit, maybe she is trying to reduce the burden of low wage migration on the Treasury by the back door ! Go Rach .

 

[BobKowalski]

When did I say it wasn't a problem? I said I find your solution of just carrying on as we are unacceptably damaging. I can't keep having discussions with someone who can't grasp the basics of a two way conversation.

You referenced studies which showed the demographic timebomb was not the problem I made it out to be. I asked for links to these studies. I assume from your response my expectations will be disappointed.

On the other hand we can now agree it is a problem. I view this as a positive.

 

[BobKowalski]

I provide no counter arguments ...
David Miles putting a number on your immigration Ponzi scheme of a further 20 million migrants in the next 40 years - I hear your obfuscation on it but no clarity as to whether that's where you still want to go .
Miles says that is unsustainable, so do I , so I imagine does anybody with any common sense but if you support it where is your counter argument that it could be sustainable ? How could it be done ? If it cannot be done then your demographic Ponzi scheme argument is done is it not ?

We discussed Mr Miles and his projections. I provided other projections which disputed his figure.

Equally, we have grown by 11m in the last 25 years so 20m in 40 years is not that far fetched. On a pro rata basis that would be 16m extra souls.

And on the subject of souls, the fertility rate for 2024 is the lowest on record. We had more births due to population increase, so without that population increase and the higher birth rates from foreign born mothers the figures would have been even more dire.

“There has been a steady and sustained fall in the number of babies born to British-born mothers, but in 2024 that was offset by an increase in births among those born abroad.

The rise is particularly pronounced among mothers who were born in southern Asia. In 2024, there were 20,000 more babies born in England and Wales to mothers from that region than there were in 2021 - a rise of almost 50% in just three years.

Births to African mothers have also risen sharply over that period, although there has been an equally rapid fall in babies born to mothers from EU countries, coinciding with Brexit coming into effect.”

On the basis of actual evidence rather than projections it would seem those extra souls will come in handy by 2065. Below is the full link to the story. Apologies for the Brexit reference, but it was in the article.

Fertility rates continue to fall, but number of births rise

Fertility rates are falling in Great Britain, as in many parts of the world. The number of babies continues to rise, however, thanks to population increase.

news.sky.com

The article also references the demographic and financial issues.

“A combination of women having fewer babies and people living longer means that there is a higher economic burden on each person of working age to support those in retirement.

Demographics expert Dr Paul Morland told Sky News: "In terms of economic society politics, the fundamental problem is that you get more people who are of retirement age [compared with] the number of people working.

"The workers are the ones who are doing the work, paying the taxes, and people over a certain age consume a lot in healthcare - an 80-something consumes five or six times as much as a 20-something.”

I think we can all agree that the demographic profile of our society and how advanced economies respond is arguably the biggest domestic issue we face.

 

[hilts]

You referenced studies which showed the demographic timebomb was not the problem I made it out to be. I asked for links to these studies. I assume from your response my expectations will be disappointed.

On the other hand we can now agree it is a problem. I view this as a positive.

The size of the problem you made it out to be, so you admit I never said it wasn't "a" problem. It will take a lot of work no doubt, so much so it is easier to just ignore which is what we do in effect.

Try population matters they seem to think there are ways to help the situation and it needn't be as drastic as some fear.

Dimbleby is a patron so I've made the presumption they ain't nutjobs. It's been a while since I read through it.

Population Matters

Our vision is of a future in which our population co-exists in harmony with nature and prospers on a healthy planet, to the benefit of all.

populationmatters.org

It will need people a lot cleverer than me to sort, bright folk came up with the global banking and trade markets and all the complexities involved without contemplating the future problems or they just ignored them to make a lot of money.

This is a bit more detailed about the 'ageing problem' but I need to read that report more in detail.

A working class blue coming to the rescue is highly unlikely though:-)

 

[Hertzblue]

We discussed Mr Miles and his projections. I provided other projections which disputed his figure.

Equally, we have grown by 11m in the last 25 years so 20m in 40 years is not that far fetched. On a pro rata basis that would be 16m extra souls.

And on the subject of souls, the fertility rate for 2024 is the lowest on record. We had more births due to population increase, so without that population increase and the higher birth rates from foreign born mothers the figures would have been even more dire.

“There has been a steady and sustained fall in the number of babies born to British-born mothers, but in 2024 that was offset by an increase in births among those born abroad.

The rise is particularly pronounced among mothers who were born in southern Asia. In 2024, there were 20,000 more babies born in England and Wales to mothers from that region than there were in 2021 - a rise of almost 50% in just three years.

Births to African mothers have also risen sharply over that period, although there has been an equally rapid fall in babies born to mothers from EU countries, coinciding with Brexit coming into effect.”

On the basis of actual evidence rather than projections it would seem those extra souls will come in handy by 2065. Below is the full link to the story. Apologies for the Brexit reference, but it was in the article.

Fertility rates continue to fall, but number of births rise

Fertility rates are falling in Great Britain, as in many parts of the world. The number of babies continues to rise, however, thanks to population increase.

news.sky.com

The article also references the demographic and financial issues.

“A combination of women having fewer babies and people living longer means that there is a higher economic burden on each person of working age to support those in retirement.

Demographics expert Dr Paul Morland told Sky News: "In terms of economic society politics, the fundamental problem is that you get more people who are of retirement age [compared with] the number of people working.

"The workers are the ones who are doing the work, paying the taxes, and people over a certain age consume a lot in healthcare - an 80-something consumes five or six times as much as a 20-something.”

I think we can all agree that the demographic profile of our society and how advanced economies respond is arguably the biggest domestic issue we face.

I don't dispute these is a demographic challenge to be tackled, however..

We discussed Mr Miles and his projections. I provided other projections which disputed his figure

No you did not. You provided a population projection. Mr Miles' is not an expert on demographics, he is an economist who provided an estimate of the migrants required based on the taxation required to support your Ponzi scheme , the two are nothing like the same. If you wish to dispute the 20 million figure then provide work from another economist who can demonstrate the number of migrants required to balance your Ponzi scheme is lower.

Equally, we have grown by 11m in the last 25 years so 20m in 40 years is not that far fetched.

You really must be out of your mind or detached from reality .
Adding 11 million in the last 25 years and look what that has done to our Housing situation, Healthcare shortages, Our roads and infrastructure, the strain on our Welfare state our social cohesion . You think you can add almost twice as many in even less time ??
Where is the money coming from ? Look at the state of our Public finances . How would we build the infrastructure for a further 20 million , we haven't built it for the 11 million in the last 25 years . We simply couldn't do it , even if we had the money.
Not far fetched? Delusional more like.
Therefore your Ponzi scheme theory is discredited, it is destined for collapse, it must collapse.
Reality is no matter how much you choose to cling to it and pontificate for it, you must know that the Political reality is that it will be put to the sword at the next election.
Unless anyone wants to go to the electorate with a proposal for 20 million more migrants plan and win .
Maybe you think that isn't far fetched either ?

 

[Bournemouth Blue]

Get a life, guys. Politics is boring. We can’t individually change anything. Go for a walk in the country and enjoy what is left of this once lovely country.

 

[Vic]

Get a life, guys. Politics is boring. We can’t individually change anything. Go for a walk in the country and enjoy what is left of this once lovely country.

I might just feel guilty for not doing more to stop genocide.

 

[BobKowalski]

I don't dispute these is a demographic challenge to be tackled…

Good. We have reached common ground in recognising that we face a challenge.

Next question. How do we tackle this challenge?

For context. Our birth rate is below the replacement rate and is decreasing annually. Our birth rate is boosted by increased births to foreign born mothers and it is still underwater.

 

[Earlyriser]

Just seen a headline from an article about The Executive Chairman of Asda asking RR to stop taxing everything and cheer is up. The bloody nerve of the man. He may have a point. However this is the guy who was The Chair of Royal Mail holdings at the period of its infamy. He is currently Executive Chairman of Asda that is rolling with a £4.9 billion worth of debt and a declining market share and losses of £600 million. In fairness he was not responsible for the catastrophic debt situation but given his track record you might think he would want to keep a lower profile

 

[The Future’s Blue!]

Just seen a headline from an article about The Executive Chairman of Asda asking RR to stop taxing everything and cheer is up. The bloody nerve of the man. He may have a point. However this is the guy who was The Chair of Royal Mail holdings at the period of its infamy. He is currently Executive Chairman of Asda that is rolling with a £4.9 billion worth of debt and a declining market share and losses of £600 million. In fairness he was not responsible for the catastrophic debt situation but given his track record you might think he would want to keep a lower profile

Another **** that is a parasite in the country.

 

[Hertzblue]

Good. We have reached common ground in recognising that we face a challenge.

Next question. How do we tackle this challenge?

For context. Our birth rate is below the replacement rate and is decreasing annually. Our birth rate is boosted by increased births to foreign born mothers and it is still underwater.

Certainly not by allowing a further 20 million migrants !

We have been here before, you don't like my solutions.

 

[Hertzblue]

Good. We have reached common ground in recognising that we face a challenge.

Next question. How do we tackle this challenge?

For context. Our birth rate is below the replacement rate and is decreasing annually. Our birth rate is boosted by increased births to foreign born mothers and it is still underwater

So then....

Next question. How do we tackle this challenge?

Presumably then you accept the Ponzi scheme as a concept is not sustainable and even if it was politically unacceptable ?

 

[BobKowalski]

Certainly not by allowing a further 20 million migrants !

We have been here before, you don't like my solutions.

I can’t honestly recall you giving any solutions, so I would be interested to hear what they are.

 

[BobKowalski]

So then....

Presumably then you accept the Ponzi scheme as a concept is not sustainable and even if it was politically unacceptable ?

It is sustainable. It is definitely not popular. It is the only solution we have.

I look forward to your alternative solution.

 

[Hertzblue]

I can’t honestly recall you giving any solutions, so I would be interested to hear what they are.

As a reminder your response bordered hysteria.

My suggestions to tackle Welfare you compared to Pol Pot forcing people to work in Khmer Cambodia.

To re-align our Education system to our job market was dismissed as a scheme to not educate people

etc etc Everything is to difficult , to complicated to do anything

In short , full steam ahead, steady as she goes... What iceberg !

 

[Hertzblue]

It is sustainable. It is definitely not popular. It is the only solution we have.

I look forward to your alternative solution.

How on earth can adding a further 20 million migrants be sustainable .

Please explain