Tom Swarbrick

bluethrunthru

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Nick Ferrari's apprentice schooled - privately educated at a school where his Dad worked and did a theology degree at Cambridge trying to school a black man about racism - I don't always agree with John Barnes but fuck me he is right here - you have more chance of being a PL manager if you are from a white man from Austria than a former player with 500 appearances and a number of international caps behind you.

 
Nick Ferrari's apprentice schooled - privately educated at a school where his Dad worked and did a theology degree at Cambridge trying to school a black man about racism - I don't always agree with John Barnes but fuck me he is right here - you have more chance of being a PL manager if you are from a white man from Austria than a former player with 500 appearances and a number of international caps behind you.



bollocks, if your good enough then superb, Barnes was awful as a manager
 
Does my nut in this.

Got fuck all to do with race. You’re either good enough or you’re not.

Fatty has had a go a few times and been wank.

40% of all professional footballers in this country are black or mixed race. There are fucking loads of black or mixed race people in the football media - off top of my head Wright, Hasselbaink, Sweep, Micah, Bothroyd, Lescott, Crooks.

So there’s no racism in the playing or media side but there is in the managerial side?

FFS.
 
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Black players will hesitate before deciding to go into management. It is a big committment to make.
It has been demonstrated that black managers dont get as many bites of the cherry as white managers do.
Would Rooney have been given the gigs he has had if he were black?
I do agree that there has to be talent there, but a lot of managers aquire skills and knowledge as they go.
 
I see both sides of this and thought it was an interesting discussion. Putting aside (as we should) the blatantly racist proportion of the issue, I do want to believe that everyone with a reasonable view wants to see the best candidate with the best chance of making your club successful, be appointed.

It's just how we get there. I bristle at the idea of quotas and the Rooney rule because they too are blatantly discriminatory. But, as Barnes says, what's the better proposal?

I think there is also a discussion or misunderstanding over the 4% black coaches in the game lining up with 4% or the British population being back so it's fair, versus 40% of the players in the top league being black compared to that 4% going into coaching.

We have to go with the 40% side as the indicator, in football. We have to. Those players are signed or successful because of ability. Luck, sure like any other player, but ability and stature. Kompany is considered a great defender on premier league history because of what he did, not his skin colour. How grateful are we that we got him for city when we could have had any number of white players who were never half the player?

Management should be on merit. That merit should be determined by specifics like past managerial career, but also by ability to motivate, develop players, get people onboard, tactical ability. The results are almost an irrelevant factor and who can guarantee results in football? I mean in the sense that no hiring board can say which candidate can get the results for sure, just which may give their club and set of players the best chance to get requests, develop, earn a big transfer fee... Whatever that clubs goals are.

For new managers getting into it, this is where black managers have to be listened to with more effort as there are so few with past experience let alone past success, which in itself is not suggestive or black managers are worse just that the weight of averages means less can succeed at the top because there are just less of them.

Clubs need to start thinking, if 40% of my players are potentially going to be black, how do I best motivate them both individually and as part of a group. Having a black manager could actually increase standards, it's just how we get there without disadvantaging another group. Two wrongs don't make a right, and I'm sure no black candidate wants to get a job offer, or even an interview, just because of the colour of their skin. Having worked for a company that tried address it's 'old white men' leadership issue by specifically employing younger, female and non whites ahead of the better or more capable candidates in some cases, I can testify that it causes much anger and further issues, ultimately undermining the leadership itself and the performance of the business.

There's a serious disconnect between the involvement of black players as players and as coaches. I think all this discussion does is highlight that, and ultimately it's the clubs who are losing out. But the issue of how to solve it remains.

Personally, I think that the only way it really changes is if we see the evidence and want to copy, just like Pep. If Vinny was to come over to the world biggest domestic league, win it and do things pep-like, then guess who will want to copy that blueprint for success. Everyone. You'll still have ye vast majority of black managers getting crap results, just like the majority of white managers, but what may change is the appointability of black managers and coaches depending on the circumstances of the hiring club and ideas and ability of the manager themselves.

Then there's also the whole discussion of do former players even make the best managers? Probably not in every case. For every Pep there are a hundred Rooneys.

Sorry for the long post, it's a complicated issue, but one, I have to believe, that most fans realise isn't quite right as it is.
 
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I see both sides of this and thought it was an interesting discussion. Putting aside (as we should) the blatantly racist proportion of the issue, I do want to believe that everyone with a reasonable view wants to see the best candidate with the best chance of making your club successful, be appointed.

It's just how we get there. I bristle at the idea of quotas and the Rooney rule because they too are blatantly discriminatory. But, as Barnes says, what's the better proposal?

I think there is also a discussion or misunderstanding over the 4% black coaches in the game lining up with 4% or the British population being back so it's fair, versus 40% of the players in the top league being black compared to that 4% going into coaching.

We have to go with the 40% side as the indicator, in football. We have to. Those players are signed or successful because of ability. Luck, sure like any other player, but ability and stature. Kompany is considered a great defender on premier league history because of what he did, not his skin colour. How grateful are we that we got him for city when we could have had any number of white players who were never half the player?

Management should be on merit. That merit should be determined by specifics like past managerial career, but also by ability to motivate, develop players, get people onboard, tactical ability. The results are almost an irrelevant factor and who can guarantee results in football? I mean in the sense that no hiring board can say which candidate can get the results for sure, just which may give their club and set of players the best chance to get requests, develop, earn a big transfer fee... Whatever that clubs goals are.

For new managers getting into it, this is where black managers have to be listened to with more effort as there are so few with past experience let alone past success, which in itself is not suggestive or black managers are worse just that the weight of averages means less can succeed at the top because there are just less of them.

Clubs need to start thinking, if 40% of my players are potentially going to be black, how do I best motivate them both individually and as part of a group. Having a black manager could actually increase standards, it's just how we get there without disadvantaging another group. Two wrongs don't make a right, and I'm sure no black candidate wants to get a job offer, or even an interview, just because of the colour of their skin. Having worked for a company that tried address it's 'old white men' leadership issue by specifically employing younger, female and non whites ahead of the better or more capable candidates in some cases, I can testify that it causes much anger and further issues, ultimately undermining the leadership itself and the performance of the business.

There's a serious disconnect between the involvement of black players as players and as coaches. I think all this discussion does is highlight that, and ultimately it's the clubs who are losing out. But the issue of how to solve it remains.

Personally, I think that the only way it really changes is if we see the evidence and want to copy, just like Pep. If Vinny was to come over to the world biggest domestic league, win it and do things pep-like, then guess who will want to copy that blueprint for success. Everyone. You'll still have ye vast majority of black managers getting crap results, just like the majority of white managers, but what may change is the appointability of black managers and coaches depending on the circumstances of the hiring club and ideas and ability of the manager themselves.

Then there's also the whole discussion of do former players even make the best managers? Probably not in every case. For every Pep there are a hundred Rooneys.

Sorry for the long post, it's a complicated issue, bit one, I have to believe, that most fans realise isn't quite right as it is.
That’s a fantastic and well thought out-out post, which makes many valid points.

My cap is well and truly doffed.
 
Top level football is a fairly ruthless meritocracy, and even if it was full of racists I think a great manager would make it regardless of colour - success = money and I can't see racism trumping greed.
 
Barnes was crap at Celtic, If managers are picked on merit why do the likes of Dyche, Bruce, Hughes & Allardyce keeping getting managerial jobs.
 
Because they can do a job at a certain level.
So if they can only do the job to a certain level & keep getting sacked, how is that based on merit. Its like saying you're the best person for the next 6 months to steady the ship, but after that you no longer merit the job
 
Black players will hesitate before deciding to go into management. It is a big committment to make.
It has been demonstrated that black managers dont get as many bites of the cherry as white managers do.
Would Rooney have been given the gigs he has had if he were black?
I do agree that there has to be talent there, but a lot of managers aquire skills and knowledge as they go.

Gullit managed a lot of clubs, first job at a top club, and was consistently pretty crap. Got it on reputation and fair enough. Was a legend.

Comparable playing career to Rooney, but Ruud spoke better English.
 
So if they can only do the job to a certain level & keep getting sacked, how is that based on merit. Its like saying you're the best person for the next 6 months to steady the ship, but after that you no longer merit the job
Mostly survival specialists, get replaced once that job is done. And not sure Hughes has had an illustrious career. Wasn't he managing Carlisle recently?
 
Mostly survival specialists, get replaced once that job is done. And not sure Hughes has had an illustrious career. Wasn't he managing Carlisle recently?
If Hughes career was illustrious he wouldn't now be at Carlisle after managing 8 other club teams
 
So if they can only do the job to a certain level & keep getting sacked, how is that based on merit. Its like saying you're the best person for the next 6 months to steady the ship, but after that you no longer merit the job
All the managers you mentioned have won promotion to the Premier League, and for that they deserve to keep their job, so they are there on merit.
 

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