Traitors ?

W W

WRicko

Well-Known Member
Joined
2 Jan 2016
Messages
3,968
I was speaking with someone this week who has virtually always voted labour a senior law at regional law firm and he was basically saying Keir is a traitor and after a fairly lengthy conversation I am still not sure why.

All I got was immigration and contempt for the working class.

Yet on immigration we have had record deportations a deal with France, hotel reductions and now changes to the rules and much tougher rhetoric.

On things for the working class more broadly we have record investment, record NHS spending, minimum wage rises.

This person thought Nigel was the answer yet he is on the side of Russia and Trump sanctioning the country.

There was a bit of mention of free speech but nothing concrete.

This really worries me not only is it baseless but we need to be disagreeing on policy not personality and assuming the worst of people

How have we got here ?

What’s the solution ?

Why is Keir a traitor ?
 
I think hes moved the party away from its core ideology, and I can understand how a labour voter would see that as a betrayal.

I remember someone saying a while ago that the left of the labour party would rather see a Tory government than a right wing labour government, and the same with the right of the labour party preferring the Tories to a left wing labour government.

So I think a lot of the dissatisfaction would be about that. Where I think Starmer is going to struggle is moving the labour party away from the party members in the middle. I do think he has done that.
 
Thats what you get when The Elite exclude The People out of politics. We dont have anyone representing us nowadays, no John Prescotts, no Kinnocks, no Heseltines or Paddy Ashdowns, less trade unions, no Jeremy Corbyns, Michael Feet, no Paddy Ashdowns... People who cared for us people, for society. People who wore tweed!

The rich have removed them, one by one they're all gone. The last one that I thought might be our representative, someone who has lived our life, Angela Raynor has now gone too in a media storm.... whipped up by rich people who own the media. They dont like that sort of person, the sort who will rail against the rich, upsets the boat.

Starmer represents that elite for me, his name keeps cropping up in shitty things that have been done in the past. He is a suited professional, the only sort that are allowed to rule us nowadays. I prefered it when there were the options above. They're not for everyone but it was better when there was choice. Y'all nowadays just vote for whomever the media allow you to. We so need a rage against the machine moment.

If you come back with arguments about the virtues or not of those people you have missed the point.
 
Gorton_Tubster said:
Thats what you get when The Elite exclude The People out of politics. We dont have anyone representing us nowadays, no John Prescotts, no Kinnocks, no Heseltines or Paddy Ashdowns, less trade unions, no Jeremy Corbyns, Michael Feet, no Paddy Ashdowns... People who cared for us people, for society. People who wore tweed!

The rich have removed them, one by one they're all gone. The last one that I thought might be our representative, someone who has lived our life, Angela Raynor has now gone too in a media storm.... whipped up by rich people who own the media. They dont like that sort of person, the sort who will rail against the rich, upsets the boat.

Starmer represents that elite for me, his name keeps cropping up in shitty things that have been done in the past. He is a suited professional, the only sort that are allowed to rule us nowadays. I prefered it when there were the options above. They're not for everyone but it was better when there was choice. Y'all nowadays just vote for whomever the media allow you to. We so need a rage against the machine moment.

If you come back with arguments about the virtues or not of those people you have missed the point.
Click to expand...
Blair was the start of all this, and I guess you voted him in. Not all rich people are elites. The elites now are those educated in Blair’s indoctrinated Universities. That’s my opinion anyway, it will be hard to come back from this. Blair knew exactly what he was doing.
 
WRicko said:
I was speaking with someone this week who has virtually always voted labour a senior law at regional law firm and he was basically saying Keir is a traitor and after a fairly lengthy conversation I am still not sure why.

All I got was immigration and contempt for the working class.

Yet on immigration we have had record deportations a deal with France, hotel reductions and now changes to the rules and much tougher rhetoric.

On things for the working class more broadly we have record investment, record NHS spending, minimum wage rises.

This person thought Nigel was the answer yet he is on the side of Russia and Trump sanctioning the country.

There was a bit of mention of free speech but nothing concrete.

This really worries me not only is it baseless but we need to be disagreeing on policy not personality and assuming the worst of people

How have we got here ?

What’s the solution ?

Why is Keir a traitor ?
Click to expand...
From my extensive experience of door-knocking, people often use a fig leaf to hide their true voting intentions.

A few years ago, it was Corbyn. Currently it's boats/immigration. My guess is your contact will be voting for Reform, but seeks justification to do so rather than admitting he's probably been duped.

I mean, who thinks a "a senior law[yer] at regional law firm" would be in perfect lockstep with the working class!?
 
Jimmieblue said:
Blair was the start of all this, and I guess you voted him in. Not all rich people are elites. The elites now are those educated in Blair’s indoctrinated Universities. That’s my opinion anyway, it will be hard to come back from this. Blair knew exactly what he was doing.
Click to expand...
Tend to agree.

He began removing the pillars of the old labour party. His no more "local heroes" speech stopping the Denis Skinner's and other decent candidates who knew the needs of their constituents from standing. Changed the rules to parachute southern lawyers/mates into safe northern labour seats. This has now bit them on the arse as the old labour safe seats are now turning to Reform because they have abandoned by the party created to represent their needs.
 
Last edited:
Gorton_Tubster said:
Thats what you get when The Elite exclude The People out of politics. We dont have anyone representing us nowadays, no John Prescotts, no Kinnocks, no Heseltines or Paddy Ashdowns, less trade unions, no Jeremy Corbyns, Michael Feet, no Paddy Ashdowns... People who cared for us people, for society. People who wore tweed!

The rich have removed them, one by one they're all gone. The last one that I thought might be our representative, someone who has lived our life, Angela Raynor has now gone too in a media storm.... whipped up by rich people who own the media. They dont like that sort of person, the sort who will rail against the rich, upsets the boat.

Starmer represents that elite for me, his name keeps cropping up in shitty things that have been done in the past. He is a suited professional, the only sort that are allowed to rule us nowadays. I prefered it when there were the options above. They're not for everyone but it was better when there was choice. Y'all nowadays just vote for whomever the media allow you to. We so need a rage against the machine moment.

If you come back with arguments about the virtues or not of those people you have missed the point.
Click to expand...
You've missed the best Labour politician for years... Denis Skinner a man fo true belief and principles.

Oh and in my opinion Kinnock (Neil) was the start of the end of the Labour party and his son is carrying on the crusade.
 
It is almost impossible to rule this country without someone thinking you are a traitor.

For example, I think it was treason to leave the EU. Others think it was treason to join it. Who is right? No one. It's an opinion, that's all.

I think people are far too free with the words 'traitor' and 'treason'. It's a very serious accusation, worse even than murder or paedophilia, and should be strictly limited to those in breach of the 1351 Act. Under which there have been no prosecutions since the immediate post-war era, not even in the case of the very worst armed terrorists.

Of course, there are subsidiary concepts like 'class traitor', but these should be spelt out and generally are not illegal acts. For example, if we decide that Labour has 'abandoned the working class', that is not illegal even if it is true. The concept of 'race traitor' is, of course, something invented by the nazis. That's the level of debate where it belongs.
 
Gorton_Tubster said:
Thats what you get when The Elite exclude The People out of politics. We dont have anyone representing us nowadays, no John Prescotts, no Kinnocks, no Heseltines or Paddy Ashdowns, less trade unions, no Jeremy Corbyns, Michael Feet, no Paddy Ashdowns... People who cared for us people, for society. People who wore tweed!

The rich have removed them, one by one they're all gone. The last one that I thought might be our representative, someone who has lived our life, Angela Raynor has now gone too in a media storm.... whipped up by rich people who own the media. They dont like that sort of person, the sort who will rail against the rich, upsets the boat.

Starmer represents that elite for me, his name keeps cropping up in shitty things that have been done in the past. He is a suited professional, the only sort that are allowed to rule us nowadays. I prefered it when there were the options above. They're not for everyone but it was better when there was choice. Y'all nowadays just vote for whomever the media allow you to. We so need a rage against the machine moment.

If you come back with arguments about the virtues or not of those people you have missed the point.
Click to expand...
The last politician I had any faith in was Jihn Smith, it must be at last 30 years since he passed.
 
moomba said:
I think hes moved the party away from its core ideology, and I can understand how a labour voter would see that as a betrayal.

I remember someone saying a while ago that the left of the labour party would rather see a Tory government than a right wing labour government, and the same with the right of the labour party preferring the Tories to a left wing labour government.

So I think a lot of the dissatisfaction would be about that. Where I think Starmer is going to struggle is moving the labour party away from the party members in the middle. I do think he has done that.
Click to expand...
Except the argument seemed to be that labour hasn’t moved far enough away from its ideology / to the right to combat immigration
 
Jimmieblue said:
Blair was the start of all this, and I guess you voted him in. Not all rich people are elites. The elites now are those educated in Blair’s indoctrinated Universities. That’s my opinion anyway, it will be hard to come back from this. Blair knew exactly what he was doing.
Click to expand...
Please tell me what indoctrination you are on about specific examples
 
WRicko said:
Please tell me what indoctrination you are on about specific examples
Click to expand...
institute.global

Tony Blair Institute for Global Change (TBI)

We are the Tony Blair Institute for Global Change. We work with political leaders around the world to drive change. We do this by advising on strategy, policy and delivery, unlocking the power of technology across all three.
institute.global

Probably this rather than academic.

A lot of labour MPs were selected after "studying" with this organisation.
 
WRicko said:
Please tell me what indoctrination you are on about specific example
Click to expand...
Well it was him who wanted to fill the universities with every young person leaving school. Some young people would have been better off without debt and Marxist ideas from ideological lecturers. Hence the lack of skilled British workmen now. I know I am generalising, but when you look what has happened since then, including the Iraq War, he did a lot of harm.
 
Jimmieblue said:
Blair was the start of all this, and I guess you voted him in. Not all rich people are elites. The elites now are those educated in Blair’s indoctrinated Universities. That’s my opinion anyway, it will be hard to come back from this. Blair knew exactly what he was doing.
Click to expand...
And now he's the Peace Envoy, You couldn't make it up!
 
WRicko said:
I was speaking with someone this week who has virtually always voted labour a senior law at regional law firm and he was basically saying Keir is a traitor and after a fairly lengthy conversation I am still not sure why.

All I got was immigration and contempt for the working class.

Yet on immigration we have had record deportations a deal with France, hotel reductions and now changes to the rules and much tougher rhetoric.

On things for the working class more broadly we have record investment, record NHS spending, minimum wage rises.

This person thought Nigel was the answer yet he is on the side of Russia and Trump sanctioning the country.

There was a bit of mention of free speech but nothing concrete.

This really worries me not only is it baseless but we need to be disagreeing on policy not personality and assuming the worst of people

How have we got here ?

What’s the solution ?

Why is Keir a traitor ?
Click to expand...

I think your acquaintance has taken leave of their senses. A traitor in the terms that they are thinking would be someone who commits an act of treason such as giving away state secrets or aiding and abetting an enemy. I know of no evidence of Starmer doing that but I do recognise the terminology used by some looney who has gone down the Reform on-line rabbit hole.

As for the betrayal of the working class are they unaware of the legislation introduced to strengthen workers rights or whats being done to support tenants from being dumped out of their homes at a moments notice.

My Dad has gone much the same way and thus we seldom communicate now.
 
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