UEFA FFP investigation - CAS decision to be announced Monday, 13th July 9.30am BST

What do you think will be the outcome of the CAS hearing?

  • Two-year ban upheld

    Votes: 197 13.1%
  • Ban reduced to one year

    Votes: 422 28.2%
  • Ban overturned and City exonerated

    Votes: 815 54.4%
  • Other

    Votes: 65 4.3%

  • Total voters
    1,499
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Wont make any difference. Those sort of discussions are often not face to face and often not counsel to counsel.

Maybe so but they’re often the most productive as they’re often more detached.

In any event I can’t see how either side could compromise. City can’t accept a ban, UEFA can’t agree to anything less. It’s inevitable that CAS will have to decide on this one.
 
Not sure the club has ever said anything about Counsel. I think it first came out of the legal press. Wouldn't be a huge omission if they never updated the story.

Anyway its just a rumour albeit in credible circles.
Where does it come from?
 
I have just read the FT column and it is a bit all over the place. However, one of the comment pieces (by someone going by the name ROXYJ), stood out for me. I have appended the comment(s) below and the full FT piece is here available on this link: https://www.ft.com/content/d4504e75-128b-4428-b5ae-7d7620a0188e

"This is a silly article. First of all it shows UEFA are still leaking, despite the rules of CAS. "A person with knowledge of the governing body's investigations...". How is David by the way? Not seen him for a couple of years.
Second, this is not about the future of FFP at all. FFP is about the poorest way of overseeing financial sustainability imaginable but the rules are still there and still being applied. This is about something that happened 7 years ago, that City have already been punished for. The first major legal questions that CAS will have to decide is whther UEFA, under its own 5-year Statute of Limitations or the terms 2014 Settlement Agrement concluded as part of that original breach, even had the right to re-open the case at all. I know a very experience commercial lawyer who believes they are likely to lose on one or both of these grounds alone. You've never even mentioned this in the article.

Third, there is clear evidence in the public domain, deposited as part of the Open Skies case brought in the USA against the three Gulf airlines (including Etihad) that the airline was liberally funded by the Abu Dhabi Government. You've probably covered that case in this very paper. There's even a leaked presentation, which was prepared for the Crown Prince Sheikh Mohammed by consultants Booz Allen, which states specifically that the Executive Council was funding the Etihad sponsorship of Manchester City. That was back in 2010-2011. As long as the money isn't coming from the owner himself, Sheikh Mansour via ADUG, then there is simply no breach of FFP rules. Where Etihad got the money from is only a problem if it came from the owner as disuguised equity investment. Even then, if Eithad is deemed to be a related party (as UEFA appeared to be trying to claim) then it's OK as long as the sponsorship is considered to be "fair value", which is what a non-related party might pay for it.

Another point I'm sure City will make is about the behaviour of the Chief Investigator, Yves Leterme, in a similar case involving PSG. They reported significant sponsorship revenue (>€100m per annum from Qatari sources who were definitely related parties. Leterme had a third-party brand valuation consultancy, Octagon, look at this and they reckoned it was worth just a few million Euros, so less than 10% of what PSG were claiming. That valuation meant that PSG would have failed FFP for a second time and faced a severe sanctions regime. Yet Leterme allowed PSG to appoint their own consultants (Nielsen) who valued it at €100m., which was over 10 times what Octagon had valued it. That meant PSG just passed the FFP test and Leterme waved that through to the higher Adjudicatory Chamber without quiblle and without consulting any of his CFCB colleages. They were outraged and demanded the case was re-opened. Yet because it was referred back to the Investigatory Chamber after a 10-day limit, it couldn't be and this decision was upheld at CAS when PSG appealed. So CAS take time limits very seriously and I'm sure they will in this case."

As for the emails:
"They show what Der Spiegel wanted to show. So, for example, there's an email to Simon Pearce from a finance person at City or CFG that asks if ADUG (Sheikh Mansour's company) is the source of the funds. Yet Der Spiegel didn't show Pearce's reply. If that had confirmed ADUG as the surce of funds then that's probably a smoking gun, yet Der Spiegel didn't print it. Maybe that reply said "ADUG don't get involved in this as they're a related party" or something similar.

I've spoke to two respected media commentators on football finance matters, one of whom has no love for the City ownership I can assure you. Both shrugged their shoulders and said there was no smoking gun in those Der Spiegel articles. A bit embarrassing maybe but both agreed there was nothing there to hang them on."

Roughing up the grammar was a good way of trying to mask your identity, PB.
 
I still hope that we got a big juicy nuclear weapon of evidence that we can casually lob in if we need to go scorched earth policy !!!!
 
Would be a shame if Pannick has turned the brief down, given his reputation. Am sure whoever replaced him is no mug either though! Guess it shouldn't really matter anyway if we do indeed have "irrefutable" evidence.

Where is this coming from?
 
It's a shame this guy is't available(alive)

920x920.jpg


"If it doesn't fit, you must acquit....."
 
I have just read the FT column and it is a bit all over the place. However, one of the comment pieces (by someone going by the name ROXYJ), stood out for me. I have appended the comment(s) below and the full FT piece is here available on this link: https://www.ft.com/content/d4504e75-128b-4428-b5ae-7d7620a0188e

"This is a silly article. First of all it shows UEFA are still leaking, despite the rules of CAS. "A person with knowledge of the governing body's investigations...". How is David by the way? Not seen him for a couple of years.
Second, this is not about the future of FFP at all. FFP is about the poorest way of overseeing financial sustainability imaginable but the rules are still there and still being applied. This is about something that happened 7 years ago, that City have already been punished for. The first major legal questions that CAS will have to decide is whther UEFA, under its own 5-year Statute of Limitations or the terms 2014 Settlement Agrement concluded as part of that original breach, even had the right to re-open the case at all. I know a very experience commercial lawyer who believes they are likely to lose on one or both of these grounds alone. You've never even mentioned this in the article.

Third, there is clear evidence in the public domain, deposited as part of the Open Skies case brought in the USA against the three Gulf airlines (including Etihad) that the airline was liberally funded by the Abu Dhabi Government. You've probably covered that case in this very paper. There's even a leaked presentation, which was prepared for the Crown Prince Sheikh Mohammed by consultants Booz Allen, which states specifically that the Executive Council was funding the Etihad sponsorship of Manchester City. That was back in 2010-2011. As long as the money isn't coming from the owner himself, Sheikh Mansour via ADUG, then there is simply no breach of FFP rules. Where Etihad got the money from is only a problem if it came from the owner as disuguised equity investment. Even then, if Eithad is deemed to be a related party (as UEFA appeared to be trying to claim) then it's OK as long as the sponsorship is considered to be "fair value", which is what a non-related party might pay for it.

Another point I'm sure City will make is about the behaviour of the Chief Investigator, Yves Leterme, in a similar case involving PSG. They reported significant sponsorship revenue (>€100m per annum from Qatari sources who were definitely related parties. Leterme had a third-party brand valuation consultancy, Octagon, look at this and they reckoned it was worth just a few million Euros, so less than 10% of what PSG were claiming. That valuation meant that PSG would have failed FFP for a second time and faced a severe sanctions regime. Yet Leterme allowed PSG to appoint their own consultants (Nielsen) who valued it at €100m., which was over 10 times what Octagon had valued it. That meant PSG just passed the FFP test and Leterme waved that through to the higher Adjudicatory Chamber without quiblle and without consulting any of his CFCB colleages. They were outraged and demanded the case was re-opened. Yet because it was referred back to the Investigatory Chamber after a 10-day limit, it couldn't be and this decision was upheld at CAS when PSG appealed. So CAS take time limits very seriously and I'm sure they will in this case."

As for the emails:
"They show what Der Spiegel wanted to show. So, for example, there's an email to Simon Pearce from a finance person at City or CFG that asks if ADUG (Sheikh Mansour's company) is the source of the funds. Yet Der Spiegel didn't show Pearce's reply. If that had confirmed ADUG as the surce of funds then that's probably a smoking gun, yet Der Spiegel didn't print it. Maybe that reply said "ADUG don't get involved in this as they're a related party" or something similar.

I've spoke to two respected media commentators on football finance matters, one of whom has no love for the City ownership I can assure you. Both shrugged their shoulders and said there was no smoking gun in those Der Spiegel articles. A bit embarrassing maybe but both agreed there was nothing there to hang them on."
That's a decent summation of some of the main points. I'd say all of it could have been sourced from here. Based on this, I'd vote for exhonoration if I could vote using tapatalk.
 
Maybe so but they’re often the most productive as they’re often more detached.

In any event I can’t see how either side could compromise. City can’t accept a ban, UEFA can’t agree to anything less. It’s inevitable that CAS will have to decide on this one.

Its perfectly possible to compromise. Its always possible to compromise.
 
It was reported that If the verdict is upheld by CAS, City would fall foul of Section J7 of the Premiership regulations which deals with clubs ‘Making false statements in connection with applying for a European club licence’.

Yeah i'd seen that, i think that is skipping a few steps of the process and jumping to a conclusion, myself. something our media is often quick to do
 
Its perfectly possible to compromise. Its always possible to compromise.

Even though Khaldoon said we wouldn't do it again you could see a Pinch MK2 coming out of this. Obviously it would have to have no ban whatsoever but if it was a small financial penalty and a don't make it look like you are trying to get round the rules in future type of thing.
 
I notice the percentage of votes for the ban to be overturned is dropping gradually. Is everyone becoming pessimistic>
 
Yeah i'd seen that, i think that is skipping a few steps of the process and jumping to a conclusion, myself. something our media is often quick to do
For most of the time period relating to the UEFA allegations the Premier League didn't even have FFP in place. I think the suggestion it would take backdated action against City based on alleged offences in a totally different competition (whatever the licensing rules say) is fanciful. This angle has been promoted by the usual suspects in the media who hate City and our owners but I believe it's wishful thinking.
I don't believe that in the middle of the biggest financial crisis football has ever seen the Premier League would go to war with City's owners, arguably the biggest external investors in English football apart from the broadcasters.
 
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