UKIP

[lloydie]

They do seem able to hold a thoroughly rousing Rally.

 

[BigJimLittleJim]

They do seem able to hold a thoroughly rousing Rally.

trying to think of another party who used to hold rather mesmerising rallies, circa WW2, can't quite think who tho..............hmmmmm, tricky.







Seriously, politics isn't fun in it's proper form, those who manage to make it so are playing with their punters, to disguise their true intentions, or in fact to cover their lack of actual policies, IMHO.

 

[adrian99]

[/b]


I think I know the answer to this, is it because it's a wasted vote on a one trick pony that only panders to small minded xenophobes?

Please explain this ludicrous observation.

Recent political history tells us this is so, Um Bongo, Um Bongo.



That was an explanation which rhymes, I am feeling pretty good about myself right now, thanks for the opportunity.

I think you will find the person who said that was told by desist by the party. It's irrelevant in any case as UKIP has pledged to reduce foreign aid substantially. It makes no sense to borrow money and give it away when we are cutting spending at home. The Tories, Labour and the Lib/Dems have pledged to increase spending on foreign aid whilst our people are having their services reduced, madness.

 

[kev20971]

So what's in for me if ukip won the election, more public holidays, higher wages , less hours at work ? I don't think so, And how would we go on with trips to Europe for the Champions League, would the rest of Europe be a pain in the arse like Russia, with visa ?

 

[Rascal]

We don't need immigration at the levels we see today and certainly not uncontrolled unskilled immigration. This is why UKIP would bring in a points based immigration system similar to the Australian model that allows the best and the brightest to come here, those that are needed and can contribute the most to society and the exchequer. This system would also make all applicants equal no matter where they apply from in the world, as opposed to the current system that allows predominately white Europeans free entry into the UK but has a different set of rules for the rest of the world the majority of whom are not white.

If we allow the current immigration waves to continue what do we do when every square metre of the country is covered by houses built to accommodate these people and their offspring.

UKIP are not saying that we don't need immigrants, what we are saying is that we need those that have the skills Britain needs, those that can contribute to the Exchequer and that the numbers must be controlled by laws created and voted for in our own parliament not created for us by unelected commissioners in in Brussels.

UKIP are pretty clear that want to slow down immigration but to do it we have leave to the EU. As long as we are EU members the debate is always a false debate.

UKIP from what i have seen say little abour foreign students coming here to study. The effect of cutting foreign student numbers on our Universities could be catastrophic in terms of funding.


I have also not seen UKIP say anything at all about the effects of there immigration policy on emmigration. Surely its cloud cuckoo land to believe that if we introduce strict immigration controls that other countries will allow UK nationals to move to there countries. Seeing as how many elder Brits live abroard would denial of emmigration for them just exacerbate any problems we have ongoing regarding an aging society.

 

[adrian99]

THe problem I have with all of this immigration commentary (well, one of the problems) is that no one seems to tackle the thorny issue that our governments liabilities are, and will continue, to grow at an exponential rate. Due in no small part to lower birth rates and greater medical care.

The proportion of people aged 65 and above will grow a YoY, thats a simple fact.

THis puts pressure on health care, pressure on hospitals, pressure on state owned care homes, and not least of all, huge pressure on the cost of public pensions.

Now, how is this counteracted? Increase birth rates? Increase immigration? How do we offset the required outgoings with required incomes (afterall, every party is screaming about the deficit and has been doing for years).

The other solution I can see is greater political union within the EU, a Supra-national European tax rather than sovereign, and redistribution where neccessary in terms of healthcare (etc). Of courses that is not desirable to a lot of people, so can't see that happening.

So where does that leave us? unfortunately we need immigration. We don't breed enough to balance our assets and our liabilities.

For savvy investors with a more long-term horizon, theres probably an opportunity, though.

We don't need immigration at the levels we see today and certainly not uncontrolled unskilled immigration. This is why UKIP would bring in a points based immigration system similar to the Australian model that allows the best and the brightest to come here, those that are needed and can contribute the most to society and the exchequer. This system would also make all applicants equal no matter where they apply from in the world, as opposed to the current system that allows predominately white Europeans free entry into the UK but has a different set of rules for the rest of the world the majority of whom are not white.

If we allow the current immigration waves to continue what do we do when every square metre of the country is covered by houses built to accommodate these people and their offspring.

UKIP are not saying that we don't need immigrants, what we are saying is that we need those that have the skills Britain needs, those that can contribute to the Exchequer and that the numbers must be controlled by laws created and voted for in our own parliament not created for us by unelected commissioners in in Brussels.

Help me out here, I'm not interested in slinging I just want to understand the logic behind what you say.

You want us to have a system like the Australian system? I hear this system lorded a lot by UKIP and its supporters, so being the kind of person who wants to have sensible policies implemented I looked into Australian migration and why this seems to be the holy grail of people arguing for reduced immigration.

The information I found surprised me to say the least and makes me question whether you actually know what you're talking about or if you're just using soundbite language you've heard other people use.

Australia accepted 244,000 immigrants into the country last year. This is extremely similar to the number let in by the UK which is also circa 240,000 for the tax year 2013-14.

Proper Source (not the Telegraph/Mail): ABoS

Of course there is more than one glaring difference between the UK and Australia. The first being that Australia has a much lower population, in fact looking at net migration per capita you find Australia's is nearly twice as high.

Source: Wiki

So I guess my questions can be summarised as this:

1. Why have you seemingly chosen to design an immigration system on a completely different country that is sparsely populated, and the size of a continent?
2. If this system allows twice as many people per capita into the country, how is it going to reduce the strain on public services?
3. Whilst slightly different to the immigration issue as a whole, are you aware that a lot of people see Australia's policy towards asylum seekers as not just cruel and abhorrent, but actually in contravention of basic human rights and illegal? If so why would we want to follow this system, are you condoning their treatment of asylum seekers?

Source: Open letter signed by 190 academics accusing the Aus federal government of an unlawful and inhumane policy on asylum seekers

I'm in genuine desire of a proper debate here, like I say I'm interested in addressing the issue and not slinging.

Happy to have a dialogue. UKIP's spokesman on migration and financial affairs Steven Woolfe told us at the party conference that net migration would be limited to 50,000 a year under this points based system. Just because we are suggesting a system similar to Australia does not mean we are willing to accept the numbers Australia are prepared to accept, we are different countries with different economies and requirements, so we will mirror their system but set our own numbers, committing UKIP to to bringing down net immigration to 50,000 people a year for employment.

Big business won't like this because they want to recruit ready trained staff from wherever they can get them, they are too selfish to invest in training our people, this does not benefit the unemployed nor does it benefit the exchequer as tax payers bear the burden of the unemployed.

The bottom line is we need to train our people to do the jobs where skills shortages exist, for example it is predicted we will need an addition 50,000 nurses in the next 3-5 years, recruiting from overseas makes no sense when we have plenty of unemployed people who can be trained and are desperate for employment. That's what we used to do years ago, not import ready made trained staff because they are either cheaper or a short cut. Business will always want to take the cheapest most flexible solution to recruitment, it is governments job to ensure they recruit in the best interest of the country, it's people and the tax payer.

The policy is announced by Steven Woolfe MEP was

"Firstly, we believe all people from whichever country they come from should be treated the same if they wish to come to our country.

Secondly, we will not allow the British state to discriminate by religion, origin or ethnicity.

Thirdly, we believe that Europeans should receive the same treatment as non Europeans. We recognise that an appropriately qualified German doctor has the same right to apply to work in the UK as an appropriately qualified Indian Doctor.

Fourthly, we can not have a completely open door immigration policy to the whole world we need to have a selective and skills based policy that balances the need of economic growth and society.

To achieve this UKIP will adopt the Australian points based system that matches skills to the industries that need them and that can permit immigration and settlement without overcrowding.

Fifthly, within the points based system UKIP commits to bringing UK net migration down to 50,00 people a year for employment. "

 

[Rascal]

The policy is announced by Steven Woolfe MEP was

"Firstly, we believe all people from whichever country they come from should be treated the same if they wish to come to our country.

Secondly, we will not allow the British state to discriminate by religion, origin or ethnicity.

Thirdly, we believe that Europeans should receive the same treatment as non Europeans. We recognise that an appropriately qualified German doctor has the same right to apply to work in the UK as an appropriately qualified Indian Doctor.

Fourthly, we can not have a completely open door immigration policy to the whole world we need to have a selective and skills based policy that balances the need of economic growth and society.

To achieve this UKIP will adopt the Australian points based system that matches skills to the industries that need them and that can permit immigration and settlement without overcrowding.

Fifthly, within the points based system UKIP commits to bringing UK net migration down to 50,00 people a year for employment. "

Of course as my previous post pointed out all reliant on the UK leaving the EU

No mention of students

No mention of emmigration

No mention of asylum

And what happens if the economy explodes into amazing growth and we have nobody to do the jobs that are needed because of an arbitary target.

The poliy sounds all well and good but it is more porous than my mamas colander

 

[hilts]

The policy is announced by Steven Woolfe MEP was

"Firstly, we believe all people from whichever country they come from should be treated the same if they wish to come to our country.

Secondly, we will not allow the British state to discriminate by religion, origin or ethnicity.

Thirdly, we believe that Europeans should receive the same treatment as non Europeans. We recognise that an appropriately qualified German doctor has the same right to apply to work in the UK as an appropriately qualified Indian Doctor.

Fourthly, we can not have a completely open door immigration policy to the whole world we need to have a selective and skills based policy that balances the need of economic growth and society.

To achieve this UKIP will adopt the Australian points based system that matches skills to the industries that need them and that can permit immigration and settlement without overcrowding.

Fifthly, within the points based system UKIP commits to bringing UK net migration down to 50,00 people a year for employment. "

Of course as my previous post pointed out all reliant on the UK leaving the EU

No mention of students

No mention of emmigration

No mention of asylum

And what happens if the economy explodes into amazing growth and we have nobody to do the jobs that are needed because of an arbitary target.

The poliy sounds all well and good but it is more porous than my mamas colander

There is a flip side to the last point though, to most people i think the argument is about numbers

 

[Rascal]

The policy is announced by Steven Woolfe MEP was

"Firstly, we believe all people from whichever country they come from should be treated the same if they wish to come to our country.

Secondly, we will not allow the British state to discriminate by religion, origin or ethnicity.

Thirdly, we believe that Europeans should receive the same treatment as non Europeans. We recognise that an appropriately qualified German doctor has the same right to apply to work in the UK as an appropriately qualified Indian Doctor.

Fourthly, we can not have a completely open door immigration policy to the whole world we need to have a selective and skills based policy that balances the need of economic growth and society.

To achieve this UKIP will adopt the Australian points based system that matches skills to the industries that need them and that can permit immigration and settlement without overcrowding.

Fifthly, within the points based system UKIP commits to bringing UK net migration down to 50,00 people a year for employment. "

Of course as my previous post pointed out all reliant on the UK leaving the EU

No mention of students

No mention of emmigration

No mention of asylum

And what happens if the economy explodes into amazing growth and we have nobody to do the jobs that are needed because of an arbitary target.

The poliy sounds all well and good but it is more porous than my mamas colander

There is a flip side to the last point though, to most people i think the argument is about numbers

Numbers over reality appears a dangerous game to play. A vote winning game perhaps, but still dangerous.

 

[roaminblue]

We don't need immigration at the levels we see today and certainly not uncontrolled unskilled immigration.

who says? UKIP? Tories? Labour? If so, they're lying to you.

Let me offer a bit of perspective here. Future, unfunded, government liabilities are currently projected to be £5 trillion. The unfunded is key. This comes directly from current workers to pay for retiring workers. The liabilities for state pension, discounted back, stands at 263% of british gdp.

Now bear in mind, this calculation is based upon a discount rate of 3%, some economists believe a true discount rate is closer to 1%. Want to know what that makes the liabilities? A huge one. MAkes them grow exponentially.

Now Income in 2013 was circa the 612bn mark. You have the interest rate, why not try and see what figure for projected in come you get. Admitedly this is based upon today's income, and as the workforce expands and tax credit increases, you may well get a higher figure. So weight it upwards.

This is why UKIP would bring in a points based immigration system similar to the Australian model that allows the best and the brightest to come here, those that are needed and can contribute the most to society and the exchequer. This system would also make all applicants equal no matter where they apply from in the world, as opposed to the current system that allows predominately white Europeans free entry into the UK but has a different set of rules for the rest of the world the majority of whom are not white.

As above, the tax credits still out current immigration levels, so tax will certainly out strip UKIPs wanted immigration levels.

Now, whether or not you think that immigration is the key to increasing the income is a different conversastion. YOu may well decide that you want to increase income tax for the existing a great deal (of course that still doesn't cope with the dangerous imblanace between the growing aging population and our working level employees).

As for the second part, its very nice of UKIP to support the minority application. That is if its anything other than a pleasant soundbite for the overal reduction in immigration, which, lets face it, it is
If we allow the current immigration waves to continue what do we do when every square metre of the country is covered by houses built to accommodate these people and their offspring.

UKIP are not saying that we don't need immigrants, what we are saying is that we need those that have the skills Britain needs, those that can contribute to the Exchequer and that the numbers must be controlled by laws created and voted for in our own parliament not created for us by unelected commissioners in in Brussels.

That may be, but UKIP, like most political parties have the economic nouse of an aubergine. I work with exellent economists who are a lot more competent (I'd wager) than most political economists. They are significantly worried about the prospect of both a) government liabilities and b) exiting the EU.

Now that isn't to say other opinions are welcome, but on our weekly round up calls the concern is pronounced. And I know who I would trust, because their vested interests do not lie along side those of political parties; whose incentive structures are about appeasing a politically inactive public through popular opinion and saying the right thing.