because aguero has already proved hese the best striker in the prem, my point was we need another striker alongside him and kelechi and bony just isn't good enough,aguero / kelechi / ibra would have been more deadly... That's all I'm saying
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because aguero has already proved hese the best striker in the prem, my point was we need another striker alongside him and kelechi and bony just isn't good enough,aguero / kelechi / ibra would have been more deadly... That's all I'm saying
We were never in for Ibrahimovic though, so it's a bit of a moot point.
JoeMercer'sWay
Well-Known Member
been thinking about this for a while, but in light of this summer I feel it sums up where United are at the moment.
I believe there are pretty much three stages of being elite/winning. Hunger, Winning and Talking. I'm going to focus on the latter two in the case of United. Winning & Talking. Or as Scousers would call it, "Our Year & 'Istree-laaaaa". United's hunger and thirst for success was driven in part by their late 60s joy, and their pure envy of Liverpool dominating during the following decades. United's winning came to the fore through Ferguson and the relentless flow of trophies followed. This then led to exponential commercial and brand growth, which put them on a dangerous precipice. The precipice that leads to talking.
There come a stage where all great winners transition from winning, to talking about what they won. You see it with Liverpool, a club that once won trophies in a prolific fashion, who now occasionally win cups but mostly talk about their success. You see it with Michael Johnson covering the Olympics, talking about his past successes and what it was like to be the best. The problem with the talking phase is that those achievements not only become more distant, but they also become overshadowed by the subsequent successes of others. Michael Johnson experienced that last week when Van Niekerk took his 400m record, Johnson became slightly less relevant almost instantly.
Aside from the fundamental difference between winning and talking about past success, the other critical contrast is in the need to justify oneself. A winner does not need to justify himself, a winner is justified and vindicated by his success. Someone who talks about their past success is justifying themselves through this very act, they are having to remind people of their worth and merit by basking on former glories.
Ferguson may have explained actions he took, but he didn't need to justify them. He didn't need to justify selling Stam, selling Beckham, selling Van Nistelrooy or missing out on signing Tevez to us, he was vindicated by his subsequent success, there was no justification needed.
Now, United are having to justify themselves by not only constantly referring back to Ferguson's tenure, but because they constantly make statements trying to ensure people remember how relevant they're supposed to be. Signing Pogba is the prime example, it has been used constantly as a marketing tool to try and convince people that United are still a top club, a relevant entity at the top of the game. It's a signing about hype, about talk, about social media interest. The winning matches part is secondary. The focus has been on United reminding people that they're still a top club.
Pep Guardiola meanwhile has been busy explaining why Hart is going to leave. He hasn't had to justify himself, he's Pep Guardiola, people make the justification for him. His success means people accept his decision. City have to some extent lent on the hype of Pep coming in, to cover up for two miserable seasons under Pellegrini where they failed to live up to expectation. The difference is that City have not yet entered the winning phase. Sure, we've won trophies, but we have not had a prolific, prolonged period of winning trophies. It is simply a refocusing of our hunger to do so.
United meanwhile have made statement after statement. Mata, Di Maria, Martial, Ibrahimovic, Mourinho and now Pogba. It's all a plea to be talked about because they are failing to win on the pitch. The years tick by, and it's still all talk. What many United fans fail to realise is that the winning is over. Sure, they will win trophies, but that glorious period where they were THE "Winners" is gone. That period of greatness is gone, and all that is left is the same desperate hype and noise that they mock Liverpool for.
The winning is over, the talking has begun. That's where United are now, and that's the most reassuring thing despite everything we've seen over the summer. We killed the winning United, all that's left is the desperate attempt to prop up the growth it inspired and the hopes to win something in any given season. The growth the success inspired, as demonstrated by Liverpool, is fed much more quickly and easily by talking and hype, than it is through the proper grind, planning and organisation that creates winning.
Whilst the talk is insufferable, it will always be tempered by the fact that the best of United, at least for this era, has been and gone. It's why anything they do now, it's why Rashford's goal to win the derby can never hurt anything like any loss to them under Ferguson, because it's over for them. And we haven't even started yet.
I believe there are pretty much three stages of being elite/winning. Hunger, Winning and Talking. I'm going to focus on the latter two in the case of United. Winning & Talking. Or as Scousers would call it, "Our Year & 'Istree-laaaaa". United's hunger and thirst for success was driven in part by their late 60s joy, and their pure envy of Liverpool dominating during the following decades. United's winning came to the fore through Ferguson and the relentless flow of trophies followed. This then led to exponential commercial and brand growth, which put them on a dangerous precipice. The precipice that leads to talking.
There come a stage where all great winners transition from winning, to talking about what they won. You see it with Liverpool, a club that once won trophies in a prolific fashion, who now occasionally win cups but mostly talk about their success. You see it with Michael Johnson covering the Olympics, talking about his past successes and what it was like to be the best. The problem with the talking phase is that those achievements not only become more distant, but they also become overshadowed by the subsequent successes of others. Michael Johnson experienced that last week when Van Niekerk took his 400m record, Johnson became slightly less relevant almost instantly.
Aside from the fundamental difference between winning and talking about past success, the other critical contrast is in the need to justify oneself. A winner does not need to justify himself, a winner is justified and vindicated by his success. Someone who talks about their past success is justifying themselves through this very act, they are having to remind people of their worth and merit by basking on former glories.
Ferguson may have explained actions he took, but he didn't need to justify them. He didn't need to justify selling Stam, selling Beckham, selling Van Nistelrooy or missing out on signing Tevez to us, he was vindicated by his subsequent success, there was no justification needed.
Now, United are having to justify themselves by not only constantly referring back to Ferguson's tenure, but because they constantly make statements trying to ensure people remember how relevant they're supposed to be. Signing Pogba is the prime example, it has been used constantly as a marketing tool to try and convince people that United are still a top club, a relevant entity at the top of the game. It's a signing about hype, about talk, about social media interest. The winning matches part is secondary. The focus has been on United reminding people that they're still a top club.
Pep Guardiola meanwhile has been busy explaining why Hart is going to leave. He hasn't had to justify himself, he's Pep Guardiola, people make the justification for him. His success means people accept his decision. City have to some extent lent on the hype of Pep coming in, to cover up for two miserable seasons under Pellegrini where they failed to live up to expectation. The difference is that City have not yet entered the winning phase. Sure, we've won trophies, but we have not had a prolific, prolonged period of winning trophies. It is simply a refocusing of our hunger to do so.
United meanwhile have made statement after statement. Mata, Di Maria, Martial, Ibrahimovic, Mourinho and now Pogba. It's all a plea to be talked about because they are failing to win on the pitch. The years tick by, and it's still all talk. What many United fans fail to realise is that the winning is over. Sure, they will win trophies, but that glorious period where they were THE "Winners" is gone. That period of greatness is gone, and all that is left is the same desperate hype and noise that they mock Liverpool for.
The winning is over, the talking has begun. That's where United are now, and that's the most reassuring thing despite everything we've seen over the summer. We killed the winning United, all that's left is the desperate attempt to prop up the growth it inspired and the hopes to win something in any given season. The growth the success inspired, as demonstrated by Liverpool, is fed much more quickly and easily by talking and hype, than it is through the proper grind, planning and organisation that creates winning.
Whilst the talk is insufferable, it will always be tempered by the fact that the best of United, at least for this era, has been and gone. It's why anything they do now, it's why Rashford's goal to win the derby can never hurt anything like any loss to them under Ferguson, because it's over for them. And we haven't even started yet.
super_city_si
Well-Known Member
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- 48,209
It's not over for them by a long way. Theyve strengthened and despite last year, mourinho is a winner. They will be there or thereabouts all season.
JoeMercer'sWay
Well-Known Member
It's not over for them by a long way. Theyve strengthened and despite last year, mourinho is a winner. They will be there or thereabouts all season.
they'll win the odd league, or odd cup, mais c'est tout.
jaiguruKun
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- 3 Mar 2011
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BBC match report beyond sycophantic..."Pogba's all-action performance was the perfect way to celebrate his brother's 26th birthday."
Mad Eyed Screamer
Moderator
They'll get Pompey in the League cup next....MUFC - the scourge of the south coast! Scary!
Yeah I was shitting myself watching the Sunderland game. Watching it live you could see how small our players were compared to theirs, the difference was crazy. Could be an area we concede a few this season.If Southampton can get 56% possession then I think we can impose our game on them but like you I would be worried about set pieces & crosses as we are quite a small team these days
FogBlueInSanFran
Well-Known Member
Very fine performance. I particularly thought the first goal was good one. You know . . . the one where the guy on the second highest wages in the league crossed it, and the guy with the highest wages in the league jumped for it, but the guy with the third highest wages in the league whistled it into the net with a brilliant header.
I also thought the fans were in very fine voice, though they seemed louder when they were singing "F**k off, Mourinho!!" last season.
As good as this team is -- and I suspect they will be very good -- the stench of complete and utter hypocrisy will hangs over the club and their fans always, just like Utd fans claim the stench of oil money hangs over City.
But there's a difference.
The difference is that City never pretended to be anything other than a club that got ridiculously, cosmically lucky with ownership.
On the other hand, Utd -- both the hierarchy and their fans -- spent decades lecturing everyone else on the "United way" . . . which today's "success" proves is an absolute, total sham, abandoned desperately and soulessly as soon as it looked like Utd might fall behind the curve.
They are scum.
I also thought the fans were in very fine voice, though they seemed louder when they were singing "F**k off, Mourinho!!" last season.
As good as this team is -- and I suspect they will be very good -- the stench of complete and utter hypocrisy will hangs over the club and their fans always, just like Utd fans claim the stench of oil money hangs over City.
But there's a difference.
The difference is that City never pretended to be anything other than a club that got ridiculously, cosmically lucky with ownership.
On the other hand, Utd -- both the hierarchy and their fans -- spent decades lecturing everyone else on the "United way" . . . which today's "success" proves is an absolute, total sham, abandoned desperately and soulessly as soon as it looked like Utd might fall behind the curve.
They are scum.
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