US & Israel attack Iran

We've got Guardiola said:
If Europe is to replace the US defence industry then that industry needs to be funded and come to actually exist first. Except for BAE there isn't a single major European defence industry in the top 10 world's largest defence companies. Europe can't buy Europe because European defence companies haven't even designed those things. Bombs are a good example where there is no choice but to buy American.

Europe's single digit increases in defence spending isn't going to make too much difference here. The equipment and capability is a million miles behind what the US has. Nothing sums this up more than the fact that a UK airbase was attacked in Cyprus and there wasn't a single Navy ship available to defend it for 2 weeks, it's completely shambolic.

Regardless of the US, the real question for us is who will be in charge of our government in a few years time? If Reform get in then we will probably have the most pro-US party in a long time. If the Greens get in (unlikely) then UK defence capability will be torn apart further.
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what list are you using for that top 10? Rheinmetall and Thales both appear in most top 10's i've seen when looking.

dont doubt there are other lists but not seen it yet.
 
metalblue said:
Feel better now you’ve had a rant?

If you no longer want to hang on to international law that is your prerogative. That puts you and Trump on the same side.
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No, that's where you're wrong.

It is the UK government that has forfeited it's right to appeal to international law by waving away the crimes of it's allies.

If we want to be protected by international law we also have to uphold it, for everyone. If you want Iran to follow international law on the strait of Hormuz, start by tabling motions at the UN opposing the illegal attack on them.
 
domalino said:
No, that's where you're wrong.

It is the UK government that has forfeited it's right to appeal to international law by waving away the crimes of it's allies.

If we want to be protected by international law we also have to uphold it, for everyone. If you want Iran to follow international law on the strait of Hormuz, start by tabling motions at the UN opposing the illegal attack on them.
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If only the world was that simple we would have rolled our troops in to Ukraine and pushed Russia out.

Now if we want to get in to a game of international law top trumps I bet arming and funding terrorist organisations is against international law. So by your logic Iran forfeited any right to appeal against the US attack by doing just that. Time to come out of the rabbit hole you’ve wandered down.
 
grunge said:
what list are you using for that top 10? Rheinmetall and Thales both appear in most top 10's i've seen when looking.

dont doubt there are other lists but not seen it yet.
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There is also Leonardo (Italy), Airbus, SAAB (fighter jets). Collectively, Europe is more than capable of defending itself. The key is collaboration either within the current NATO command structure or the EU command structure. The advantage for Europe is the high degree of internal cooperation that already exists.
 
metalblue said:
If only the world was that simple we would have rolled our troops in to Ukraine and pushed Russia out.

Now if we want to get in to a game of international law top trumps I bet arming and funding terrorist organisations is against international law. So by your logic Iran forfeited any right to appeal against the US attack by doing just that. Time to come out of the rabbit hole you’ve wandered down.
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Iran isn't appealing to international law though, is it? It's accepted it gets no protection and has used the strait of Hormuz closure and it's own missile defences to force the US to ceasefire talks, not the UN and international law.
 
Vic said:
It's a bit ironic but the USA objects to maritime agreements between sovereign states that it doesn’t like - like between Iran and Oman. Under UN maritime law.

That was of course before Trump tore up any pretence of caring about international law.
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Trump and his cronies do not give a fuck about international law or norms. It’s mental what we are witnessing play out.
 
metalblue said:
If only the world was that simple we would have rolled our troops in to Ukraine and pushed Russia out.

Now if we want to get in to a game of international law top trumps I bet arming and funding terrorist organisations is against international law. So by your logic Iran forfeited any right to appeal against the US attack by doing just that. Time to come out of the rabbit hole you’ve wandered down.
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Trump blurted out that the US sent arms to the Kurds in the hope it would incite/assist insurrection in Iran, so no one is coming out smelling of roses in that comparison. The US has a well established history of arming and funding insurgents. To be fair they are not alone in this.

PS: The Kurds kept the weapons and stayed home.
 
Vic said:
It's a bit ironic but the USA objects to maritime agreements between sovereign states that it doesn’t like - like between Iran and Oman. Under UN maritime law.

That was of course before Trump tore up any pretence of caring about international law.
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It's even more ironic/idiotic because He blurted out the other day HE might impose the same tarriffs if He got control of it...insanity.
 
domalino said:
Iran isn't appealing to international law though, is it? It's accepted it gets no protection and has used the strait of Hormuz closure and it's own missile defences to force the US to ceasefire talks, not the UN and international law.
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Iran called the attacks a violation of international law - which they were. The UN secretary general condemned them.

Closing the Strait was their trump card and they played a blinder. As someone said many pages ago who needs nukes when you can do this?

None of that means they are free to introduce a toll on civilian ships at the risk of being sunk and we should turn a blind eye to it.
 
metalblue said:
The US and Israel have illegally attacked Iran and our government has said absolutely nothing about it.
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domalino said:
The US is illgally blockading Cuba and our government says nothing about it.

The US illegally invaded Venezuela and kidnapped it's leader and our government says nothing about it.

Israel commits genocide in Gaza and our government says nothing about it.

Now you're upset because someone breaks international law? Fucking hypocrite. You only want international law to apply when we're the victim.

I drive 400 miles a week, I don't want higher fuel prices, but jesus christ you have to shut up with these appeals to international law when this country has shit all over international law and completely ignored brazen and blatant violations when our allies commit them, or it suits us. Why the hell should Iran or anyone follow rules we don't, and we don't even try to enforce?
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You’re not wrong mate. I very much like and hugely respect Metalblue. He’s an articulate, intelligent poster but you’ve nailed him on this particular subject.
 
BobKowalski said:
Trump blurted out that the US sent arms to the Kurds in the hope it would incite/assist insurrection in Iran, so no one is coming out smelling of roses in that comparison. The US has a well established history of arming and funding insurgents. To be fair they are not alone in this.

PS: The Kurds kept the weapons and stayed home.
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I have this thing of not believing anything coming out of Trumps mouth.

As you say no party involved can claim the moral high ground when it comes to adhering to international law. It doesn’t mean we should all give up on it but it’s hard when the enforcement agency (aka the US) is also one of the accused. That said it is likely we are entering a period where the law of the jungle applies and the UK needs to have a military capable of protecting our interests.
 
domalino said:
The US and Israel have illegally attacked Iran and our government has said absolutely nothing about it.

The US is illgally blockading Cuba and our government says nothing about it.

The US illegally invaded Venezuela and kidnapped it's leader and our government says nothing about it.

Israel commits genocide in Gaza and our government says nothing about it.

Now you're upset because someone breaks international law? Fucking hypocrite. You only want international law to apply when we're the victim.

I drive 400 miles a week, I don't want higher fuel prices, but jesus christ you have to shut up with these appeals to international law when this country has shit all over international law and completely ignored brazen and blatant violations when our allies commit them, or it suits us. Why the hell should Iran or anyone follow rules we don't, and we don't even try to enforce?
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Our government isn't going to say much about it because we know what the reaction would be. This government is stumbling along from crisis to crisis and the Starmer government specifically is hanging by a thread.

Last quarter GDP growth was 0.1% so you'd be very safe to assume that the war with Iran has already resulted in a technical recession for Q1/26 and certainly any upset of the US will seal that fate for considerable time.

We can obviously go with better principles but there is a price attached to that.
 
I wonder if the military stuff can be bought online from Tamu and Shein.?
I'm sure the Chinese equivalents of a now difficult USA spend would work just as good.
Hopefully keep us going until Europe gets up to speed.
 
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