US Politics Thread

super_city_si said:
He comes across as very angry and bitter. Continues to say he's an independent but continually posts about owning the 'libs'
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Let the projection flow. Am I angry and bitter when I criticize Donald Trump? Do I not attack Trump enough for you?What percentage of my posts ought I be dedicating to echoing the chamber?

Posting, pointing out what I think are the lies, the bad faith, the disingenousness and hypocrisy of "libs", supplying data and evidence to back assertions, calling out nonsense is what's got you all hot and bothered. You aren't interested in U.S. Politics you just want to post smack about Trump and Republicans and god help anyone that pushes back.

I have said I am an Indpendant twice? Twice, is not continuing. Owning the libs? You mean stating facts you don't like and would care to ignore? Perspectives you don't approve of? Stories you'd rather be left untold? Do you even know what an Independent is?

Independent voters are the fastest growing segment of the voting population in the US. As much as half of the electorate either self-identifies and/or is registered independent of a political party.

In half the states that register voters by party, independent voters outnumber the membership of at least one major party. In more than a few, they outnumber the membership of both major parties.

And yet, the rhetoric and treatment of independent voters in US elections hasn't changed as their numbers grow. Partisan pundits will acknowledge that they are critical in presidential election outcomes, but at the same time say they are a myth and are really Republican or Democrat "leaners."

"When people identify themselves as 'independent' or register as independents they are opting out of [party] labeling. They're not opting out of participating -- far from it," said Salit.

"But there is a notion that there are only two things that you can be. You can only be a Democrat and only be a Republican." She added that this bias -- and I would add entitlement -- is baked into the system and is used to suppress independent voters.
 
Dax777 said:
I think Foggy is mostly wrong in his prognosis.

Let me address each point
1. Lame Duck Presidency: On this he is technically righ. It's his 2nd term so he isn't running again. But that would in effect really kick in after the midterms in 2 years.

Right now he has 2 years to run his agenda. And the Republicans are not supporting him simply because they are beholden to him. They are doing so because it's mostly their agenda. They are Republicans after all. So they will mostly support him. Just like the Democrats would have done to a Democrat President.

2. Two key Reasons Why he ran: Polishing his Wealth brand and avoiding prosecution. This is just silly. Perhaps there is some truth to the latter. Seeing as Democrats are so blood thirsty that they feel a need to jail their opponents. But my sense is had he decided he was done with politics in 2021, none of the prosecutions would have started. They were started to stop him politically. So he could have simply avoided them by simply not running or signalling that he wouldn't run. It's no surprise most of the prosecutions all started late.


As for polishing his Money Making Brand, that's just silly. I don't understand how so many don't see it. He is a 78 year old billionaire... Money is NOT the motivating factor for running...it's obvious what he wants...

A Political Legacy and Adulation of fans...

Those are the 2 things he has been chasing for over a decade. If you fed him some Truth Serum, I'd bet money he'd say what he wants is for the Trump name to be thought of likethe Kennedy name. That's what he really wants! A last legacy. Being a random rich guy doesn't give you that.

3. Wildcard: Yes, on this Foggy is right. He is a wildcard. And he generally intends to break things that haven't worked for ages and bust up traditions that have coalesced around a particular type in Washington for generations.

4. His Policy and Lack of interest in doing work. This also is partly true. Donald Trump himself has little interest in the day to day grind of. Government work. That's not his forte. But we've has a President that did absolutely no work for 4 years so that shouldn't be much of an issue.

But what Donald Trump wants to do is appoint passionate people who have severe and well documented criticisms of certain branches of government that he agrees with, and have those people reorganize how things ought to be done in those departments.

Take any of his cabinet picks ( outside of the Department of Education - which he is clearly in favor of abolishing), any of the others. And simply go Google any long form interviews they've done. on the last 5 years. Ir easily becomes clear why they are on his list.

What you'd find is a throve of videos of them discussing the problems with the very department Trump is now putting them up to lead. They all have strong views about different aspects of the organization they are being tasked to oversee.

Pete Hegseth DOD
Kash Patel: FBI
Tulsi Gabbard: DNI
RFK: HHS
Even the Matt Gaetz at DOJ before he resigned nominations... And on and on....

They all fit the same model, have a passion for how they think that particular organization should be reformed.

Then there is Vivek and Elon at DOGE recommending cuts to the government everywhere. Even Bernie Sanders and a few other populist lefties have gotten on board the idea

From a Bird's eye view, what Trump represents is an Extreme Reformer who is seeking Personal Legacy... Whether he succeeds or fails is a 50/50 proposition. But what he is about to attempt seems pretty massive.

Here are definite predictions. He WILL NOT seek a 3rd term. He'd be 82. The idea he will is so silly. Dude isn't really a politician. People forget that.

And he'd attempt a massive government reform in the next 2 years. Some will be successful and others will get massive push back from entrenched interests.

On the economic front, he'll pass a tax break measure, he'll cut regulations related to oil exploration and production, then on the Presidential Front, he'll sign a bunch of orders to repeat all of Biden's dumb border orders.

Tariffs are going to be a big issue. It's clear he wants to use them as a negotiation tool. But leftists will whine about it so much that they'll probably give away the leverage and force him to backdown before the other countries make concessions.

In Foreign Policy: He'll negotiate his ass off to end the Ukraine/Russia war. And take a no nonsense attitude towards Iran and Qatar as it relates to releasing American born hostages in Hamas's camps.

While all that is going on, the other team will do their best to undermine everything he tries and they'll ascribe some negative personal interest to every action he takes.


One thing is for sure, it's going to be a roller coaster ride the next 2 years. But as it relates to Americans, he needs to speed up the economic recovery ( so it's not just paper good) and shut the border down and remove as many criminals who entered over the last 4 years.
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That’s more like it.
Whether I agree or not or anyone else does or not, that is the kind of thing I’m interested in. You and Foggy are poles apart but just debating the facts is fine without the name calling. Goes for everyone but particularly the Americans in here.
You’re all going to have to live together, figuratively speaking, so an interest in what will unfold is foremost, I would say.

I wouldn’t have a deep enough knowledge of a lot of the appointments you mention but I do find the manner of the appointments totally foreign to me. That’s in keeping with my interest and amazement at how America works and what you all regard as normal.

I know not all of the departments are strictly governmental ‘civil service’ as we would call them, but I’ve said it before, it is foreign to me that the president can put his people in these appointments.
Over here the government’s cabinet have all been elected by the people and the civil service is separate to party. It operates regardless of who is in government although it does depend on the budget provided obviously.

There is much of what I’m learning in here about the American system that I find questionable, I’ve been up front about that.
I could not see myself living there. Practices that are normal to you are less so for me.
There is a lot I find less Democratic than it could be.

I don’t agree with you quite often but I do like seeing things from another perspective. It does make me stand back and cast fresh eyes over things.

Your points on foreign policy are interesting.
My scepticism is probably my own bias about Trump and who he may be beholding to generally. But you wouldn’t be the first to suggest his pragmatism whatever his motives, may have to be the way forward.
I would like to be optimistic there as the alternative is frightening.
Ukraine?
Israel?

There are serious consequences to the present situations continuing.

I hope others give their alternative views and maybe it’s my jury minder court experiences shaping my way of thinking.
I’d like to reach a verdict on nothing but the evidence shown rather than the legal argument that the jury don’t hear.
 
Username Required said:
Let the projection flow. Am I angry and bitter when I criticize Donald Trump? Do I not attack Trump enough for you?What percentage of my posts ought I be dedicating to echoing the chamber?

Posting, pointing out what I think are the lies, the bad faith, the disingenousness and hypocrisy of "libs", supplying data and evidence to back assertions, calling out nonsense is what's got you all hot and bothered. You aren't interested in U.S. Politics you just want to post smack about Trump and Republicans and god help anyone that pushes back.

I have said I am an Indpendant twice? Twice, is not continuing. Owning the libs? You mean stating facts you don't like and would care to ignore? Perspectives you don't approve of? Stories you'd rather be left untold? Do you even know what an Independent is?

Independent voters are the fastest growing segment of the voting population in the US. As much as half of the electorate either self-identifies and/or is registered independent of a political party.

In half the states that register voters by party, independent voters outnumber the membership of at least one major party. In more than a few, they outnumber the membership of both major parties.

And yet, the rhetoric and treatment of independent voters in US elections hasn't changed as their numbers grow. Partisan pundits will acknowledge that they are critical in presidential election outcomes, but at the same time say they are a myth and are really Republican or Democrat "leaners."

"When people identify themselves as 'independent' or register as independents they are opting out of [party] labeling. They're not opting out of participating -- far from it," said Salit.

"But there is a notion that there are only two things that you can be. You can only be a Democrat and only be a Republican." She added that this bias -- and I would add entitlement -- is baked into the system and is used to suppress independent voters.
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You spend an awful lot of time criticising the left but Im not sure ive seen much criticism of the right. Both sides have clear flaws but you spend most of your time rounding on Fog and others for their "lib" or lefty views.

Your last point is very salient. I think theres just too big a divide now in the 2 parties and theres a huge gap for independents but I dont know enougn about the system to see how that changes. As you say, people are pretty ingrained in Democrat or Republican parties
 
Username Required said:
Let the projection flow. Am I angry and bitter when I criticize Donald Trump? Do I not attack Trump enough for you?What percentage of my posts ought I be dedicating to echoing the chamber?

Posting, pointing out what I think are the lies, the bad faith, the disingenousness and hypocrisy of "libs", supplying data and evidence to back assertions, calling out nonsense is what's got you all hot and bothered. You aren't interested in U.S. Politics you just want to post smack about Trump and Republicans and god help anyone that pushes back.

I have said I am an Indpendant twice? Twice, is not continuing. Owning the libs? You mean stating facts you don't like and would care to ignore? Perspectives you don't approve of? Stories you'd rather be left untold? Do you even know what an Independent is?

Independent voters are the fastest growing segment of the voting population in the US. As much as half of the electorate either self-identifies and/or is registered independent of a political party.

In half the states that register voters by party, independent voters outnumber the membership of at least one major party. In more than a few, they outnumber the membership of both major parties.

And yet, the rhetoric and treatment of independent voters in US elections hasn't changed as their numbers grow. Partisan pundits will acknowledge that they are critical in presidential election outcomes, but at the same time say they are a myth and are really Republican or Democrat "leaners."

"When people identify themselves as 'independent' or register as independents they are opting out of [party] labeling. They're not opting out of participating -- far from it," said Salit.

"But there is a notion that there are only two things that you can be. You can only be a Democrat and only be a Republican." She added that this bias -- and I would add entitlement -- is baked into the system and is used to suppress independent voters.
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Now I find this interesting.
Here in ireland Independent candidates have a realistic chance of being elected in their constituency as quite a few would have local reputations as councillors or some such. Our Proportional Representation system with surplus transfers make it very possible.

PR in turn also makes for a wider representation in parliament reflecting the voting public, not just a two party system.
This usually leads to coalition governments again where the independent’s vote can prove to be crucial in its formation.

So your vote for an independent can genuinely count.

Is this the case in America.
In a national election, is the choice simply a Dem or Rep government?
Does voting for an I dept count at national level?
 
Dax777 said:
He is anti leftist. How is this hard to understand? There is way more than enough crazy stuff brewing on the far left to turn a decent person's stomach.

The fact that most decent 'lean left' folks here hand wave away some of these views, while saving their venom for anyone right of center is interesting in of itself and something history probably needs to study.
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Wait. What extreme leftist views are folks hand waving away? And what Democratoc politicians in positions of power and influence are proffering such radical views? I’m especially interested in economic ones.

I also don’t think it’s fair to say venom is saved for “anyone” right of center, and that’s a generalized distinction that doesn’t work well anyhow. You already called Trump an “extreme reformer” so we know that at least on one level Trump holds polarized views in your own mind — on issues of reform he’s an extremist. As a pragmatic centrist I object to extremism generally.
 
Folk in here giving the trump troll the time of day are half the problem. No point engaging with someone who has anything at all positive to say about trump. They are the same selfish thick ****. About time the left stood up.
 
Dax777 said:
He is anti leftist. How is this hard to understand? There is way more than enough crazy stuff brewing on the far left to turn a decent person's stomach.

The fact that most decent 'lean left' folks here hand wave away some of these views, while saving their venom for anyone right of center is interesting in of itself and something history probably needs to study.
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What do you regard as ‘left’ in America?
What I saw of the Dems in the last 4 years, or ever for that matter wouldn’t qualify as ‘Left’ over here.
 
super_city_si said:
You spend an awful lot of time criticising the left but Im not sure ive seen much criticism of the right. Both sides have clear flaws but you spend most of your time rounding on Fog and others for their "lib" or lefty views.

Your last point is very salient. I think theres just too big a divide now in the 2 parties and theres a huge gap for independents but I dont know enougn about the system to see how that changes. As you say, people are pretty ingrained in Democrat or Republican parties
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If I did that, on here, wouldn't it just be redundant?

Look, Donald Trump is alleged to have called people like me "suckers and losers." Of course I'm still alive. The point still stands, if he said that, it's a total dick thing to say etc.etc. Foggy brought that up a couple of weeks ago.

“I went to the World War II cemetery — World War I cemetery he refused to go to. He was standing with his four-star general, and he told me he said, ‘I don’t want to go in there because they’re a bunch of losers and suckers.’”​

The quotes “losers” and “suckers” originate from an article published in The Atlantic in 2020 about former President Donald J. Trump’s relationship to the military. He continues to dispute the reports.

The article relied on anonymous sources, but many of the accounts have been corroborated by news outlets, including The New York Times, and by John F. Kelly, a retired four-star Marine general who was Mr. Trump’s White House chief of staff. Mr. Trump has emphatically denied making the remarks since the Atlantic article was published.

www.nytimes.com

“I went to the World War II cemetery — World War I cemetery he refused to go to. He was standing with his four-star general, and he told me he said, ‘I don’t want to go in there because they’re a bunch of losers and suckers.’”

This needs context.
www.nytimes.com www.nytimes.com

You know some people have burned the American flag. I'm sure I can find someone on Youtube burning a LGBT flag. An Israeli flag. Fine. It's protected expression. I wouldn't do it, but that's just me. So Trump is, of course entitled to his opinion and so on and so forth.

But he's NOT entitled to his own facts, no-one is, and he's not entitled to - I've said this before but I'll say it again -

He's not entitled to organize and lead a criminal conspiracy to overturn an election he lost and install himself as POTUS thereby subverting the Constitutional order.

If Joe Biden had a good faith and reasonable belief that Donald Trump is an existential threat to democracy and intends to trash the Constitution then he is bound by his oath NOT to hand Trump the keys to the family car so he drive it into a brick wall.

Imperfect analogy: Can you imagine Abraham Lincoln hosting Jefferson Davis at the White House with a "congratulations" and "looking forward to a smooth transition"?
 
Pedestrian said:
Folk in here giving the trump troll the time of day are half the problem. No point engaging with someone who has anything at all positive to say about trump. They are the same selfish thick ****. About time the left stood up.
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About time you fucked yourself.

Name one positive thing since the election I have said about Trump.

I'll wait.
 
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