US Presidential Election, Nov 5th 2024

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bugsyblue said:
I’m not American and can’t vote so no I didn’t read the party manifesto. That link is from a conservative think tank though? It’s not the republican mandate unless I’m missing something? Not saying trump won’t try and make political changes and put his friends in power but to a degree every political party does this. If the US citizens don’t like it then they vote dem next election and those policies can be reversed. That’s democracy.

Now I pointed out a number of things the Nazis are associated with. You chose to ignore all those key points and point to an obscure political agenda which is yet to be made law. Or even attempted to be made law. It’s sort of pointless to debate what trump might do… he has already been in power, so why don’t you look at what he did do and highlight what policies of his are a copy of the nazi party?

I think I’ve been fair and raised points for you to counter. As I’ve said I’m no advocate of trump - I really dislike the guy - but this is the problem with social media no one listens to the other side they simply try and find a new angle to make their point as if winning the argument is all that matters. It’s actually pointless.
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Your paragraph says it all

You described the discussion here
 
bugsyblue said:
Well you had Adam Schiff directly state Trump colluded with Russia and, I think it was him, called Trump a Russian puppet. The Mueller report actually found no evidence of this.
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That comment is a bit disingenuous. Although the Mueller report did not establish direct collusion between Trump himself and Russia, plenty of evidence of collusion between Russia and the Trump campaign was found resulting in numerous convictions. He also found that Trump obstructed the investigation and provided numerous provably false statements. The report left it up to congress to determine if a crime was committed because it was outside its remit to make that judgment.
 
bugsyblue said:
I’m not American and can’t vote so no I didn’t read the party manifesto. That link is from a conservative think tank though? It’s not the republican mandate unless I’m missing something? Not saying trump won’t try and make political changes and put his friends in power but to a degree every political party does this. If the US citizens don’t like it then they vote dem next election and those policies can be reversed. That’s democracy.

Now I pointed out a number of things the Nazis are associated with. You chose to ignore all those key points and point to an obscure political agenda which is yet to be made law. Or even attempted to be made law. It’s sort of pointless to debate what trump might do… he has already been in power, so why don’t you look at what he did do and highlight what policies of his are a copy of the nazi party?

I think I’ve been fair and raised points for you to counter. As I’ve said I’m no advocate of trump - I really dislike the guy - but this is the problem with social media no one listens to the other side they simply try and find a new angle to make their point as if winning the argument is all that matters. It’s actually pointless.
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American here, voted for Harris.

So there are a few things going on here. You are correct that Project 2025 is indeed from a right-wing think tank and not directly from the GOP...but the issue is that lots of people involved in it are in Trump's orbit and that a very prominent, influential think tank has published a blueprint to give Trump as close to unchecked power as a President can have is alarming.

Trump has publicly distanced himself from Project 2025 but I don't believe for a second he wouldn't try to enact some of the more odious things in it.

As far as the Nazi stuff...so this is kind of a multilayered issue that goes beyond mere name-calling. Labels like "fascist" and "Nazi" have been overused by the left in the US since way before Trumpism was a thing, I heard it a lot about George W Bush, and while he was by no means a good President, there was virtually nothing he did that had any parallels to fascism.

Obviously, you're right in saying there hasn't been mass genocide, apartheid, "secret police" etc under Trump like there was under the actual Nazis. The real issue is that Trump has true right-wing authoritarian tendencies that have parallels to fascist RHETORICAL styles even if they don't translate to those sorts of policies. It says something really bad about the direction our country is headed.

Part of the problem, though, is that the left has overused the "Nazi" and "fascist" labels for many years (arguably many decades) AND the right wing in this country is largely made up of voters who are too dense to understand that when the left says "fascist" they don't mean literal gas chambers or brownshirts marching in the streets. They're talking about hard-right democratic backsliding, which absolutely has happened under Trump, but they're using terms that aren't particularly helpful, especially as right-wing voters are all too happy to dismiss Trump's shortcomings because "well, the left says he's a Nazi/fascist, and he's clearly not, so we can't take their concerns seriously."

There's also the issue of certain people in Trump's orbit - such as the governor of Florida, DeSantis - weaponizing police and the legislative branch to attack people and entities that have criticized them. While it isn't the same as sending the Gestapo after someone, it's deeply concerning that we're seeing these insidious ways in which right-wing extremists are trying to flex their muscles against out-groups in the name of "anti-woke" or "law and order."
 
Ifwecouldjust....... said:
Dems totally failed to get to grips with how people receive their information nowadays.... little or no social media presence. Whereas X and other media was flooded with Trump support
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That may or may not be the case. One of the features of social media is that the more you view of a certain angle on stories, the more the algorithms serve up more of the same. And you end up going down the rabbit hole into a complete echo chamber. So a Trump supporter ends up only ever seeing Trump supporting stories (or anti-Harris) and a Harris supporter only ever sees Harris supporting stories (or anti-Trump). They both then think that is all there is out there and never get a balanced view.

This feeds the polarisation and we need to get a grip on it IMO.
 
bugsyblue said:
I’m not American and can’t vote so no I didn’t read the party manifesto. That link is from a conservative think tank though? It’s not the republican mandate unless I’m missing something? Not saying trump won’t try and make political changes and put his friends in power but to a degree every political party does this. If the US citizens don’t like it then they vote dem next election and those policies can be reversed. That’s democracy.

Now I pointed out a number of things the Nazis are associated with. You chose to ignore all those key points and point to an obscure political agenda which is yet to be made law. Or even attempted to be made law. It’s sort of pointless to debate what trump might do… he has already been in power, so why don’t you look at what he did do and highlight what policies of his are a copy of the nazi party?

I think I’ve been fair and raised points for you to counter. As I’ve said I’m no advocate of trump - I really dislike the guy - but this is the problem with social media no one listens to the other side they simply try and find a new angle to make their point as if winning the argument is all that matters. It’s actually pointless.
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This link might help .... you'll see that Trump and many of the Republicans tick many boxes (as does Project 2025)

The 14 Characteristics of Fascism, by Lawrence Britt, Spring 2003

ratical.org


Just as an aside .... there were 24 (known) Republican senators who were paid by and worked for the NAZIs in the run up to the USA involvement in the second world war .
 
SkyBlueAmerican said:
American here, voted for Harris.

So there are a few things going on here. You are correct that Project 2025 is indeed from a right-wing think tank and not directly from the GOP...but the issue is that lots of people involved in it are in Trump's orbit and that a very prominent, influential think tank has published a blueprint to give Trump as close to unchecked power as a President can have is alarming.

Trump has publicly distanced himself from Project 2025 but I don't believe for a second he wouldn't try to enact some of the more odious things in it.

As far as the Nazi stuff...so this is kind of a multilayered issue that goes beyond mere name-calling. Labels like "fascist" and "Nazi" have been overused by the left in the US since way before Trumpism was a thing, I heard it a lot about George W Bush, and while he was by no means a good President, there was virtually nothing he did that had any parallels to fascism.

Obviously, you're right in saying there hasn't been mass genocide, apartheid, "secret police" etc under Trump like there was under the actual Nazis. The real issue is that Trump has true right-wing authoritarian tendencies that have parallels to fascist RHETORICAL styles even if they don't translate to those sorts of policies. It says something really bad about the direction our country is headed.

Part of the problem, though, is that the left has overused the "Nazi" and "fascist" labels for many years (arguably many decades) AND the right wing in this country is largely made up of voters who are too dense to understand that when the left says "fascist" they don't mean literal gas chambers or brownshirts marching in the streets. They're talking about hard-right democratic backsliding, which absolutely has happened under Trump, but they're using terms that aren't particularly helpful, especially as right-wing voters are all too happy to dismiss Trump's shortcomings because "well, the left says he's a Nazi/fascist, and he's clearly not, so we can't take their concerns seriously."

There's also the issue of certain people in Trump's orbit - such as the governor of Florida, DeSantis - weaponizing police and the legislative branch to attack people and entities that have criticized them. While it isn't the same as sending the Gestapo after someone, it's deeply concerning that we're seeing these insidious ways in which right-wing extremists are trying to flex their muscles against out-groups in the name of "anti-woke" or "law and order."
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As a youngster I used to call Thatcher a fascist as did many. I think it was just youthful hyperbole as while I wouldn't vote for her , were she alive, I now realize I was over egging it somewhat.
 
One of the things that struck me is how many Americans are saying we don’t want our boys and girls dying in someone else’s war, well they seem to cause or interfere in many parts of the world that’s their fault. Iraq x2, Afghanistan all in the name of terror or should I say oil. Americans don’t send their military in unless it’s to their advantage and it mostly is, whether is oil or now minerals (Africa). What they are saying is Europe, yet Russia rolling in only weakens America, just look at the grain for food etc in Ukraine. The next wars will be over dwindling resources on the planet so sorry America your boys and girls will be dying abroad for the foreseeable future especially with a pn orange bully who thinks he can take what he wants. Oh and as for special relationship you can fuck off, it doesn’t exist, they see us as lap dogs.
 
Gremlin said:
That may or may not be the case. One of the features of social media is that the more you view of a certain angle on stories, the more the algorithms serve up more of the same. And you end up going down the rabbit hole into a complete echo chamber. So a Trump supporter ends up only ever seeing Trump supporting stories (or anti-Harris) and a Harris supporter only ever sees Harris supporting stories (or anti-Trump). They both then think that is all there is out there and never get a balanced view.

This feeds the polarisation and we need to get a grip on it IMO.
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Correct. And it enables both sides to say pretty much anything they want with zero oversight or right of reply because they know the other side is never going to see or hear it. It's an insidious blight on politics around the world and urgently needs sorting out.
 
Newsnight last night had a Republican (not sure who) and Piers Moron on, both of whom ardently defended Trump, saying "oh that's campaign talk, he didn't mean it".

Victoria Derbyshire commented that she tends to listen to what candidates say to judge them, to which Moron called her naive.

Not exactly helpful for clarity/trust when the defence is essentially that you can't believe a word Trump says - I wonder what basis anyone is meant to use to decide.
 
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