US Tariff War

[JASR]

We need to move overseas production to multiple countries ASAP - not just China.

As already pointed out by Apple , this is a pipedream.

China has longterm (30+ years) planning, from very strong education at all levels (nursery onwards) through to specialized technical training, and then finally manufacturing with efficient, highly skilled streamlined supply chains.

The talk of moving/starting any new technical manufacturing base, from China to the US is just an impossibility:
No skilled workforce spare capacity(the us ‘imports’ huge amounts of skilled labour as well as the manual labour).
High labour costs, further exacerbated by previous point.
No longterm realistic planning to address the widening gap of education and knowledge - see UK as well.
Short termism cost cutting profit driven companies.
Short termism politics that about faces direction every 4 years, leading to more short termism.

 

[BlueAnorak]

As already pointed out by Apple , this is a pipedream.

China has longterm (30+ years) planning, from very strong education at all levels (nursery onwards) through to specialized technical training, and then finally manufacturing with efficient, highly skilled streamlined supply chains.

The talk of moving/starting any new technical manufacturing base, from China to the US is just an impossibility:
No skilled workforce spare capacity(the us ‘imports’ huge amounts of skilled labour as well as the manual labour).
High labour costs, further exacerbated by previous point.
No longterm realistic planning to address the widening gap of education and knowledge - see UK as well.
Short termism cost cutting profit driven companies.
Short termism politics that about faces direction every 4 years, leading to more short termism.

Why just to the US?
Plenty of democracies around the world that need a boost.
You need distributed product sourcing whatever you produce abroad.

 

[bluethrunthru]

I love the world tariff - its the most beautiful word in the English language. i am going to tariff our local Shell petrol station 150% so when I fill up with £70 worth of diesel so when I go in the kiosk they pay me £35 - in fact the Duster diesel is off i am gonna get a Ford F150 pickup doing 12mpg on super unleaded petrol and just enjoy motoring paid for by Shell.

Whats that? They work how? So my original diesel will cost me £105 because of the tariff? And they can sell to other vehicle owners who don't charge a tariff? I could put my tariff on hold for 90 days I suppose. What the Shell garage want to tariff me ? How is that consistent business practice - how do i plan economical travel or vehicle replacement if nothing stays stable for more that 12hrs?

 

[JASR]

Why just to the US?

sorry, I was going for the main antagonist in the current game shit show, pointing out yet another of the absurdities of the US tariff position.

 

[Blue Maverick]

As already pointed out by Apple , this is a pipedream.

China has longterm (30+ years) planning, from very strong education at all levels (nursery onwards) through to specialized technical training, and then finally manufacturing with efficient, highly skilled streamlined supply chains.

The talk of moving/starting any new technical manufacturing base, from China to the US is just an impossibility:
No skilled workforce spare capacity(the us ‘imports’ huge amounts of skilled labour as well as the manual labour).
High labour costs, further exacerbated by previous point.
No longterm realistic planning to address the widening gap of education and knowledge - see UK as well.
Short termism cost cutting profit driven companies.
Short termism politics that about faces direction every 4 years, leading to more short termism.

It does beg the question though and it is a general worry if the shit hits the fan in manufacturing terms how the fuck would we deal with making stuff, our steel plant nearly shut down, if we had to go to war for some reason against say China we would be stuffed.

 

[BlueAnorak]

sorry, I was going for the main antagonist in the current game shit show, pointing out yet another of the absurdities of the US tariff position.

It's totally absurd - but so is western companies just getting stuff from China - its like shooting yourself in the foot.

 

[Alvin-blue-qhd]

The west don't worry about the war, they worry about the supply chain.
But the war itself is... more worthy of attention, or suspicion?
I don't know.
Anyway, it's too late. The war is inevitable. You should move everything out of China as soon as possible.

 

[Alvin-blue-qhd]

And China should do the same thing, move everything out of the west.
The price of gold will rise. A little tip for your investment.

 

[I'm With Stupid]

If they had 2.01 in costs, they didn’t make any profits to tax!

Are Pret a UK corp that is required to pay taxes by law?

Btw, it’s the international tax laws, not the corporations, that are the problem. As a shareholder of corporations, I want them to pay as little tax as the law allows so they can improve their share prices. This is capitalism and how global business works.

Do YOU pay taxes you’re not legally required to?

Dodge taxes and you deserve to have the book thrown at you, though! Back taxes, interest & penalties!

I'll be honest mate, that comes across as a pretty naive post. When a company says they've made 'no profit' for years at a time, do you really believe them? Or did they actually make a profit but shift it all to some low tax territory through a series of bullshit arrangements. It's amazing how many corporations continue to operate with a decade of no profits, isn't it?

And yes, I don't pay taxes I'm not legally required to, but I also don't engage a series of lawyers to ensure that I pay as little as possible, nor do I lobby governments around the world to retain or create such tax loopholes. This is not some amoral companies using the rules that society has created for them, this is a bunch of corporations using their considerable power to change the rules in their favour over decades.

This idea that it's not illegal so we can't criticise it is bollocks. I'll criticise companies stealing tax revenues in the same way that I'll criticise them exploiting workers in the developing world, taking advantage of poor regulations to destroy the environment, or using child labour. If you only give a shit about your own profit, then that says more about your moral compass than anything else.

As far as I'm concerned, American corporations rampant tax-dodging should be part of any negotiations about who is allowed to operate in our market and one what terms. And yes, I know it's not only American corporations doing this, but they are the most egregious examples and the ones in the best position to manipulate government policy, including foreign policy against any territory that tries to regulate them (as we see with the EU).

 

[ChicagoBlue]

I'll be honest mate, that comes across as a pretty naive post. When a company says they've made 'no profit' for years at a time, do you really believe them? Or did they actually make a profit but shift it all to some low tax territory through a series of bullshit arrangements. It's amazing how many corporations continue to operate with a decade of no profits, isn't it?

And yes, I don't pay taxes I'm not legally required to, but I also don't engage a series of lawyers to ensure that I pay as little as possible, nor do I lobby governments around the world to retain or create such tax loopholes. This is not some amoral companies using the rules that society has created for them, this is a bunch of corporations using their considerable power to change the rules in their favour over decades.

This idea that it's not illegal so we can't criticise it is bollocks. I'll criticise companies stealing tax revenues in the same way that I'll criticise them exploiting workers in the developing world, taking advantage of poor regulations to destroy the environment, or using child labour. If you only give a shit about your own profit, then that says more about your moral compass than anything else.

As far as I'm concerned, American corporations rampant tax-dodging should be part of any negotiations about who is allowed to operate in our market and one what terms. And yes, I know it's not only American corporations doing this, but they are the most egregious examples and the ones in the best position to manipulate government policy, including foreign policy against any territory that tries to regulate them (as we see with the EU).

I’ll be honest mate, but that comes across as a pretty naive post!

I state, simply and plainly that these corporations use their lawyers and accountants to leverage the laws of the trade to the maximum to minimize their tax burdens, and you tell me I’m naive…and then tell me it’s all bullshit that they do it, even though it’s legal, because they all colluded to write laws in the first place!!!

And I’M the naive one?!!! Errrr, OK.

You want different laws that force change. Good for you!

I’m saying that until the laws change, it’ll be this way, because they’re just following the laws on the books…and pay lawyers and accountants handsomely to save them millions, and perhaps billions.

I hate to say it, but screaming your displeasure into the abyss while wishing it were different doesn’t make it different. U til it dies, id expect every company to do the utmost to minimize their cost of doing business in any legal way that comports with their corporate ethos…which was my point all along.

Just because you can, doesn’t mean you should. However, when you’re paid to protect other people’s money, you should, if you can.

Lastly…

“This idea that it's not illegal so we can't criticise it is bollocks. I'll criticise companies stealing tax revenues…”

No-one is saying you can’t criticize it, and that’s hardly the point. The point is that it is NOT STEALING!!! If it was, it’d be illegal, and your criticism might not fall on deaf ears.

Your moral outrage notwithstanding, either change the tax laws or expect companies to use the current laws to their advantage. This is not exactly a controversial point.

 

[KS55]

Ultimately, corporation tax, that is a tax on profits, is doomed. It is too easy to avoid. A sales tax, levied at the point of delivery not the booking point is the way forward.

 

[Vic]

I’ll be honest mate, but that comes across as a pretty naive post!

I state, simply and plainly that these corporations use their lawyers and accountants to leverage the laws of the trade to the maximum to minimize their tax burdens, and you tell me I’m naive…and then tell me it’s all bullshit that they do it, even though it’s legal, because they all colluded to write laws in the first place!!!

And I’M the naive one?!!! Errrr, OK.

You want different laws that force change. Good for you!

I’m saying that until the laws change, it’ll be this way, because they’re just following the laws on the books…and pay lawyers and accountants handsomely to save them millions, and perhaps billions.

I hate to say it, but screaming your displeasure into the abyss while wishing it were different doesn’t make it different. U til it dies, id expect every company to do the utmost to minimize their cost of doing business in any legal way that comports with their corporate ethos…which was my point all along.

Just because you can, doesn’t mean you should. However, when you’re paid to protect other people’s money, you should, if you can.

Lastly…

“This idea that it's not illegal so we can't criticise it is bollocks. I'll criticise companies stealing tax revenues…”

No-one is saying you can’t criticize it, and that’s hardly the point. The point is that it is NOT STEALING!!! If it was, it’d be illegal, and your criticism might not fall on deaf ears.

Your moral outrage notwithstanding, either change the tax laws or expect companies to use the current laws to their advantage. This is not exactly a controversial point.

I suspect you assume that corporations are benign or at least morally neutral rather than acting like psychopaths.

About - The Corporation

Part film and part movement, THE CORPORATION has been transforming audiences and dazzling critics with its insightful and compelling analysis since 2003.

thecorporation.com

 

[bluethrunthru]

 

[ChicagoBlue]

I suspect you assume that corporations are benign or at least morally neutral rather than acting like psychopaths.

I suspect you don’t know what I think about many things, esp based on the short & sweet thesis on capitalism from which your comment is made.

I do think corporate “personhood” was a disastrous decision and that Citizens United has corrupted American politics irretrievably. However, none of that has anything to do with a corporation (a legal piece of paper that allows moral humans to be governed completely differently than the moral humans outside its organizational construct) following the laws of any and every country while trying to reduce its taxes, which is what the conversation was about.

If you’re going to tell me that’s wrong, or somehow immoral, we can have that philosophical discussion. However, calling THE LAW “bullshit” as an argument against global capitalism is a weak argument worth both highlighting and then dismissing out of hand.

 

[ChicagoBlue]

Ultimately, corporation tax, that is a tax on profits, is doomed. It is too easy to avoid. A sales tax, levied at the point of delivery not the booking point is the way forward.

So, a pass through tax placed on the corporation, completely separated from its ability to make a profit on the sale or not?

Good luck organizing that rebellion. VAT is bad enough, but removing the VA and just making it a T for the sake of getting money from somewhere, strikes me as short-sighted and the death of business incubation.

If a corporation receives no “credit” for new product generation (at a loss) in order to gain public acceptance and eventual need or desire, then it simply stops. Nobody wants to pay taxes on a sale while they lose money on every single one as they attempt to develop scale.

As the Capitalist says about the Socialist, it’s a great idea until you run out of other people’s money!

I’m not sure we are going to solve the supposed problem of tax system employed by the drive towards global capitalism’s cheaper production leading to greater profits here today, but I’m seeing a few non-starters.

 

[mancity2012_eamo]

I’ll be honest mate, but that comes across as a pretty naive post!

I state, simply and plainly that these corporations use their lawyers and accountants to leverage the laws of the trade to the maximum to minimize their tax burdens, and you tell me I’m naive…and then tell me it’s all bullshit that they do it, even though it’s legal, because they all colluded to write laws in the first place!!!

And I’M the naive one?!!! Errrr, OK.

You want different laws that force change. Good for you!

I’m saying that until the laws change, it’ll be this way, because they’re just following the laws on the books…and pay lawyers and accountants handsomely to save them millions, and perhaps billions.

I hate to say it, but screaming your displeasure into the abyss while wishing it were different doesn’t make it different. U til it dies, id expect every company to do the utmost to minimize their cost of doing business in any legal way that comports with their corporate ethos…which was my point all along.

Just because you can, doesn’t mean you should. However, when you’re paid to protect other people’s money, you should, if you can.

Lastly…

“This idea that it's not illegal so we can't criticise it is bollocks. I'll criticise companies stealing tax revenues…”

No-one is saying you can’t criticize it, and that’s hardly the point. The point is that it is NOT STEALING!!! If it was, it’d be illegal, and your criticism might not fall on deaf ears.

Your moral outrage notwithstanding, either change the tax laws or expect companies to use the current laws to their advantage. This is not exactly a controversial point.

Whatever the morality of it all, we are talking about the difference between tax avoidance and tax evasion.
One is legal and probably perceived as a luxury of the rich or corporate. The other is illegal.

 

[KS55]

So, a pass through tax placed on the corporation, completely separated from its ability to make a profit on the sale or not?

Good luck organizing that rebellion. VAT is bad enough, but removing the VA and just making it a T for the sake of getting money from somewhere, strikes me as short-sighted and the death of business incubation.

If a corporation receives no “credit” for new product generation (at a loss) in order to gain public acceptance and eventual need or desire, then it simply stops. Nobody wants to pay taxes on a sale while they lose money on every single one as they attempt to develop scale.

As the Capitalist says about the Socialist, it’s a great idea until you run out of other people’s money!

I’m not sure we are going to solve the supposed problem of tax system employed by the drive towards global capitalism’s cheaper production leading to greater profits here today, but I’m seeing a few no starters.

We (Uk) already pay large amounts of tax irrespective of profit.
National Ins. is 10% of payroll, VAT, Taxes on inventory, business rates, capital investment, for starters. For small retail businesses, business rates dwarf profits tax. For large retailers business rates are tiny. I wonder why we have supermarkets everywhere. Tesco used to boast that it had an outlet in every postcode bar one.
The international agreement on 15% minimum profits tax and other measures were in response to zero effective profits tax in several countries or business sectors: Holland, Luxembourg, Ireland. Amazon booked all its UK sales as Irish. Google too. The last of these countries became the HQ for multiple US companies’ European subsidiaries and had the highest income per capita in the EU. Needless to say, they paid little no profits tax despite massive sales and built huge cash reserves.
The splitting of intellectual property from the goods is notorious and the royalties in these cases are tax deductible eg IKEA. Capital allowances are too small so companies are punished for re-equipping.
I could go on, but the abolition of profits tax and most of those above is perfectly doable. We don’t really have a capitalist economy in UK (40% of GDP goes in taxes) more a mixed one and we should recognise that in the tax system.

 

[ChicagoBlue]

Whatever the morality of it all, we are talking about the difference between tax avoidance and tax evasion.
One is legal and probably perceived as a luxury of the rich or corporate. The other is illegal.

Exactly!

If they’re doing something illegal, do ‘em to the maximum extent of the law. Until then, talk to your MP/Congressman and change the laws.

Good luck with that!

 

[ChicagoBlue]

We (Uk) already pay large amounts of tax irrespective of profit.
National Ins. is 10% of payroll, VAT, Taxes on inventory, business rates, capital investment, for starters. For small retail businesses, business rates dwarf profits tax. For large retailers business rates are tiny. I wonder why we have supermarkets everywhere. Tesco used to boast that it had an outlet in every postcode bar one.
The international agreement on 15% minimum profits tax and other measures were in response to zero effective profits tax in several countries or business sectors: Holland, Luxembourg, Ireland. Amazon booked all its UK sales as Irish. Google too. The last of these countries became the HQ for multiple US companies’ European subsidiaries and had the highest income per capita in the EU. Needless to say, they paid little no profits tax despite massive sales and built huge cash reserves.
The splitting of intellectual property from the goods is notorious and the royalties in these cases are tax deductible eg IKEA. Capital allowances are too small so companies are punished for re-equipping.
I could go on, but the abolition of profits tax and most of those above is perfectly doable. We don’t really have a capitalist economy in UK (40% of GDP goes in taxes) more a mixed one and we should recognise that in the tax system.

I pay PLENTY in tax…
Federal Income Tax (35%),
State income tax (5%),
Social Security tax (6.3%),
Medicare Tax (4.2%),
Home property tax (2% of home values),
Sales tax (10.25%, 12% in restaurants),
Vehicle tax ($150/car & more for the boat),
Petrol tax (who knows?!),
$100 car sticker for each car in my village

PLUS about $600/mo on current healthcare

AND, about $1,000/mo for our retirement healthcare (My wife’s family all seem to live into their 90s)!

As a wage earner, with no young children, I have ZERO DEDUCTIONS open to me, other than the Standard $30,000 Married Filing Jointly. So, I know all about taxes, on both sides of the pond (all my family are still there), and I’m not sure you’re paying more than so-called “lower tax” Americans!

Anyway, I’m all in favor of extra taxes being paid above the $1M MAGI LEVEL, and it feels like it would be very well received by the 95%+ that it would never affect! The problem, of course, is that people at that level usually have business income, lots of deductions and probably pay much less than I do!!

Whatchagonnado?!

 

[Blue Maverick]

I think the World Cup has a shock coming to it, the club World Cup will be a good barometer for this, let’s see what attendances are like from a tourist perspective.