Var debate 2019/20

[mancity2012_eamo]

No, but he's not a nameless individual either.
The transparency you describe is mostly what I've been banging on about - no-one knows what happened for the penalty. I think the disallowed goal (edit) was clearer - VAR reviewed the goal (as with all goals), and then reported that by law it should be disallowed having hit the arm.

Which law though.
I think these rules are up to date, if not someone can enlighten me.

HANDLING THE BALL

It is an offence if a player:

• deliberately touches the ball with their hand/arm, including moving the hand/arm towards the ball
• gains possession/control of the ball after it has touched their hand/arm and then:
  • scores in the opponents’ goal
  • creates a goal-scoring opportunity
• scores in the opponents’ goal directly from their hand/arm, even if accidental, including by the goalkeeper

It is usually an offence if a player:

• touches the ball with their hand/arm when:
  • the hand/arm has made their body unnaturally bigger
  • the hand/arm is above/beyond their shoulder level (unless the player deliberately plays the ball which then touches their hand/arm)

The above offences apply even if the ball touches a player’s hand/arm directly from the head or body (including the foot) of another player who is close.

Except for the above offences, it is not usually an offence if the ball touches a player’s hand/arm:

• directly from the player’s own head or body (including the foot)
• directly from the head or body (including the foot) of another player who is close
• if the hand/arm is close to the body and does not make the body unnaturally bigger
• when a player falls and the hand/arm is between the body and the ground to support the body, but not extended laterally or vertically away from the body

I'm assuming the interpretation used was the first highlighted bit.
I find that highly subjective. It comes under the 'then' clause which assumes he gained control of the ball. He didn't.
Looking at the exception highlighted. I don't believe it is even conclusive that the ball hit his arm. maybe the upper arm, who knows but it certainly wasn't him making his body bigger.
It's all subjective even with their new rules.
And as for the penalty. Well...

 

[waspish]

No, No it just wan't, read the rules, understand them without inserting your own words, these are "laws of the game" and should require no interpretation, theywords should, and do, stand on there own

Wrong those are not the var rules those were game rules

 

[spiny]

Teams regularly play 10 at the back against City making offsides and penalty box incidents more likely because of fine margins. VAR will hardly affect Liverpool, United and other hoofball teams or those playing on the break.

It disproportionaly will penalise possession based attacking sides and has already shifted the rules in favour of defenders. The burden of proof appears to have shifted away from good reason not to give a goal from to justifying why it should be given?

No one criticises goal line technology because it is precise and measurable. For infringements it is clear that VAR is subjective and open to interpretation which is no different to referees and officials. The appeal of attending a football game is the dynamic between the players and the crowd. To make out that VAR is objective and does not make mistakes reduces football to a computer game where players and fans become irrelevant. If players and fans cannot see or no longer accept the ways the laws of the game are interpreted and applied, the game is dead as a spectacle.

Football is popular because it is a simple game. The joke always was that some people could not understand the offside rule. The powers that be have interferred with the laws of the game to an extent that few people can understand. Worse is that referees and officials rely on faceless jobsworth people sat in front of a tv screen making decisions as to how to interpret situations without any accountability.

In rugby, referees ask if there is any reason why a decision should not be given, shown in full view with dialogue? In football we have the insane situation where everyone is in the dark apart from tv viewers and the game is artificially held up for minutes on end.

It is insane and inconsistent and open to manipulation as shown by no pen on the Rodri foul, Bernie penalised for being fouled and of course the Jesus goal.

 

[Bandofblues]

Var says , penalty...is what you’ll get, stop clutching at straws , its there to fuck us over & make Liverpool champions , no doubt in my mind .

110% This. The Ref/Lino will give the pen, VAR will review and say well there was contact (2mins earlier) so you could give it; and they will because no way will they overrule the onfield referee's decision.

Dodgy refereeing decisions, penalty awards included, will stay and VAR will be used to search for the slightest infraction when a goal has been legitimately scored. Meanwhile the chumps in the ground are the last to know what is going on.

Get the refs miked up and let's hear what they and the VAR team are saying to each other. That's the only way to ensure some measure of transparency.

 

[spiny]

Another issue with VAR is the concept of phases of play. If a goal is disallowed because of an earlier offence then why was this not given when the foul took place? Rugby has an advantage rule determined by the referee. As far as I am aware this has never been the case in football.

Which then comes back to the Jesus goal. He did not score directly from the alleged handball (I still have not seen a conclusive photo as evidence) so when would any advantage be over?

Its all smoke and mirrors bollocks.

 

[HarrytheBlue]

When I mentioned there being tech available that is absolute and instant, I'm not saying there's a bespoke, off the shelf bit of kit that's ready to go. What I'm saying is that there's tech that any software developer can adapt to instantly identify whether a player's offside. I'm told that it's image recognition - cameras linked to something like goal-line tech taking the human element out.

 

[Dave Ewing's Back 'eader]

Get the refs miked up and let's hear what they and the VAR team are saying to each other. That's the only way to ensure some measure of transparency.

I think this will be the last thing to appear, if ever it does. I think they will keep this at arms length for as long as they can as its early implementation might make the conversation the perfect script for a couple of stand-up comedians.

 

[Chippy_boy]

Which law though.
I think these rules are up to date, if not someone can enlighten me.

HANDLING THE BALL

It is an offence if a player:

• deliberately touches the ball with their hand/arm, including moving the hand/arm towards the ball
• gains possession/control of the ball after it has touched their hand/arm and then:
  • scores in the opponents’ goal
  • creates a goal-scoring opportunity
• scores in the opponents’ goal directly from their hand/arm, even if accidental, including by the goalkeeper

It is usually an offence if a player:

• touches the ball with their hand/arm when:
  • the hand/arm has made their body unnaturally bigger
  • the hand/arm is above/beyond their shoulder level (unless the player deliberately plays the ball which then touches their hand/arm)

The above offences apply even if the ball touches a player’s hand/arm directly from the head or body (including the foot) of another player who is close.

Except for the above offences, it is not usually an offence if the ball touches a player’s hand/arm:

• directly from the player’s own head or body (including the foot)
• directly from the head or body (including the foot) of another player who is close
• if the hand/arm is close to the body and does not make the body unnaturally bigger
• when a player falls and the hand/arm is between the body and the ground to support the body, but not extended laterally or vertically away from the body

I'm assuming the interpretation used was the first highlighted bit.
I find that highly subjective. It comes under the 'then' clause which assumes he gained control of the ball. He didn't.
Looking at the exception highlighted. I don't believe it is even conclusive that the ball hit his arm. maybe the upper arm, who knows but it certainly wasn't him making his body bigger.
It's all subjective even with their new rules.
And as for the penalty. Well...

I agree mate. Laporte did not gain possession or control. And neither was his arm in an unnatural position. And furthermore, I've yet to see any photos or videos actually showing the ball hitting his arm.

To rule the goal out therefore, is an absolute travesty, it really is.

 

[Jimfv1]

After seeing Dermot Gallagher's take on the penalty I can see that they want the on pitch referee to call the decisions, which makes sense. However when Oliver explains to the players that he didn't get a call from the video ref regarding the penalty then it is obvious that he wanted VAR to make the call. The rules according to Gallegher are that the on pitch ref calls it. I don't think the referee can possibly see everything that is going on in the penalty area when a corner is taking place so he should have help from VAR, the rule as it currently stands is bollocks. VAR is available, Oliver wanted them to call the penalty but the error was made in that VAR wanted Oliver to call it. We would all respect the refs more if they just apologised and said a mistake was made. All the players, pundits, staff and fans, even from other clubs know a mistake was made so the refs should change this now and admit their cock up.

What is also contentious is the speed of players running through attacking the ball as happened last week, the technology cannot be accurate enough to cope with this at present so surely its better for everyone if borderline decisions go with the attacking team as they have always supposed to have done. VAR can call this and I accept VAR isn't perfect but a couple of tweaks after these poor decisions and it would make the rule more clear for everyone. As for the handball by Laporte I'm not sure how this should be called, I feel sorry for Jesus having two goals ruled out in two games, after all strikers thrive on goals and it must affect him when he does nothing wrong but the goals he scores are wiped off the records.

I also still cannot believe the Sanchez foul on KdB wasn;t a yellow when he was running through their defence and yet Sterling was carded for a soft challenge at the halfway line....

 

[hants_bluepants]

Can’t change the rules this season, as it would be unfair to those teams already affected by VAR, including game changing goals.

Realise that - great shame!