Var debate 2019/20

100% correct yet they link the IFAB guidelines from their site. The Premier league have not just summarized they have changed the wording, they have added "accidental" to the creating a goal scoring line, when it simply isn't there on the IFAB guidelines.

IFAB have specifically took the word accidental out and gone out of their way to say the player handling/creating has to have possession/control of the ball, and THEN create a goal scoring opportunity in the Laporte incident.

And then you have another argument entirely whether Jesus had a chance straight from the arm. Jesus had to touch the ball to the side and create the space/opportunity for himself.
What if Jesus beat 4 players and scored, did Laporte still create the opportunity or did Jesus create his own opportunity by beating 4 men?

Far far too many grey areas the way it is written now.


and if you hover the curser over the line you then get a detailed explanation of the rule which gives a slightly different slant on it all which backs up the decision to rule out the goal as it does say "or creates a goal scoring opportunity"

i cannt work out how to insert a screen shot so ive copied it here:

Explanation:
Greater clarity is needed for handball, especially on those occasions when 'non-deliberate handball is an offence. The re-wording follows a number of principles: - football does not accept a goal being scored by a hand/arm (even if accidental) - football expects a player to be penalised for handball if they gain possession/control of the ball from their hand/arm and gain a major advantage e.g.score or create a goal scoring opportunity ........then there is some other stuff that is not relevant here

there is a last bit however that would mean if laporte made contact with his head first and then onto his arm and then it had fell to GJ would mean that the goal SHOULD have stood. It reads:

If the ball comes off the players body (e.g. Head in this case) , or off another player of either team who is close by, onto the hand/armit is often impossible to avoid contat with the ball

so basically if Laporte had headed the ball onto his own arm (which does happen) and then it had fell to GJ the goal should have stood.
 
If there's a ref on the board, maybe we can get some clarity here.

I do not believe there is a single entry in the Laws of the Game that sanctions a team. Only individual players, and team officials can be penalised because only individual players and team officials can infringe the laws of the game.

It’s not sanctioning a team though, its still sanctioning an individual. Personally, I think the entire law is wrong though as I don’t think anyone should be penalised for something completely out of their control.

The pl interpretation of it, I’m less fussed about to be honest, it’s an extension of the same underlying issue. All they’ve really done is taken it to the extreme to try and reduce the grey areas and as a consequence made a ridiculous law even more ridiculous.
 
All this , the rule this the handball rule that is all bullshit, designed for everyone to tie themselves in knots with rules and regulations , interpretations , he says this , he says that.
Let’s be clear , it is another level of corruption so the powers that be can manipulate the outcome of games & get the champions they want who make them the most money . It’s plain for everyone to see but some will never accept it because it distorts their version of the world, where everyone is honest and rules are applied evenly & correctly , the Sky is blue , the birds are singing & there’s no danger anywhere.
 
All this , the rule this the handball rule that is all bullshit, designed for everyone to tie themselves in knots with rules and regulations , interpretations , he says this , he says that.
Let’s be clear , it is another level of corruption so the powers that be can manipulate the outcome of games & get the champions they want who make them the most money . It’s plain for everyone to see but some will never accept it because it distorts their version of the world, where everyone is honest and rules are applied evenly & correctly , the Sky is blue , the birds are singing & there’s no danger anywhere.
Spot on.
 
I'm confused. Regards your opening sentence, that's what I said!

Regards your 2nd sentence, I agree.


Then we agree, but the guidelines/wording are different for the scorer of a goal and the person that creates a chance, that's my point, they have deliberately made different guidelines when it was easier to lump them both together IF they wanted to. It would have been easier for everybody and the whole game if they did, but they didn't.

You have 7 ? ex refs/officials sat around a table putting this law together for IFAB, I'm simply not having it that they thought the Laporte/Boley incident is handball.

lf they did. they could have clearly put "creating a goal scoring opportunity is handball whether accidental or not" That's all they had to do.

The Laporte/Boley scenario has obviously come up in conversation and this is what they came up with, they take out the word accidental and change the wording to a player has to "gain possession/control of the ball first after it touches their arm/hand, and THEN create a goal scoring opportunity."

That's it in a nutshell to me.

I'm just repeating myself now lol
 
Between VAR and piss poor refereeing the outcome of the game against Spurs was seriously affected by two poor decisions by the officials.

How the fuck can this be a progressive move by the rule makers in order to improve the game ?

As is usual a situation which was flawed but just about palatable, has been made totally unpalatable due to the cack handed drafting and implementation of rules which benefit the defending team .

Funny you write this as I have a view about why that is I was about to post irregardless of this which speaks directly to this.

What I say here might be taken the wrong way by some, but bear with me...

I will say that I believe the reason VAR is apparently being used to help the defending team relates to cultural values that "defending well" represents and has a long history in the UK and I'd argue is a similar trait in the USA, which relates to the concept of "the sanctity of sport". This is what is on the face of it a simple, Occam's Razor-like, perspective that says no one should EVER get an advantage over other players (I'll say more on what this looks like as it relates to City and our perceived "permanent dominance") but is far more complex.

I'd argue, however, that this idea of "fairness" in sport and how it relates to seeing defence as so valuable is perhaps deeply rooted in, apologies if anyone are offended as this may sound harsh, but white working class culture that football has represented (as can sport in the USA, btw) and at times insecurities of some fans (even those in the FA) about watching young athletes, particularly (IMHO) brown and black players of incredible skill and athletic ability earn huge sums of money for games we grew up playing and sometimes even believing we could do better than these professional athletes themselves, particularly if we had the same abilities, and especially if they don't appear to remain loyal to their original or hometown club.

The coverage and treatment of Sterling over the years speaks specifically to all of this, because he violated these rules by being a young black athlete who chose to leave his original club perceived as "pure" for one seen as "dirty" and does not play "fair" to that large section of football supporters. Part of the cliche in sport, and even the worshiping of "Italian tactics" and Mourinho's style was the myth and hope that you cannot beat tough defending with hard working players who possess a good enough bit of skill if they are well organised and determined.

What City through Pep has introduced to football in a culture that has believed that other version as devine, was that you can be tough, and hard working, but also if you possess great athletes of incredible skill along side brilliant tactics and coaching and show that the idea of "tough defending," seen as the "great equaliser" for those of lesser abilities, to be perhaps not so true anymore. I also would include the way athletes are coached compared to previous era's as also something some moan about (i.e. they're all soft) yet has led to Mourinho's complete demise as a manager or why Keane will never get a real job because it's also outdated for working with the top players of today.

To go back to the idea of "the sanctity of sport" those who praised Spurs' victory via VAR as some kind of "justice" to get us, certainly sound like they truly feel we have been winning "unfairly". We all know that is the mantra of huge numbers of fans, especially in the UK, about our success. They believe we are not following the rules of "the sanctity of sport" and therefore must be stopped no matter what.

I'm actually not necessarily saying VAR is specifically there to stop us, although I could see an argument why, but the cultural value of viewing defending and hard work as more valuable than attacking is a long held cultural value in the UK (say compared to Spain or South America), as far as I understand. It links to the argument I made regarding its influence on VAR's implementation and also relates to the new handball rule. Interestingly enough also relates to conflict amongst fans in the USA about "fairness" in sport.

One thing to consider is that most of the big sports in the USA not only use VAR/Instant Replay, but also have wage or salary caps to give fans a perceived sense of "justice" about how clubs can put together their teams. Would a wage cap have a similar quelling effect on the number of loud calls for City's head we hear so often? I could actually see that as plausible.

Another bit of controversy here is to point that The NBA learned that to enhance its "product", following a period of defence dominating, strong physical play allowed, and regular fights all that fueled rivalries was to abandon this. They introduced more and more rules that allowing attacking play over defending and physical play. It helped the league grow tremendously, and is curious because the NBA is also easily the most "progressive" (certainly politically) league in the USA in how it decided to go away from what many of the most loyal fans of the 90s loved and you still hear nostalgia for today, and could be seen as not aligned with "traditional" USA sport fan values. By "traditional", again controversy here, I mean white, mostly working class fans (I never mean all), but that was perhaps not so difficult for the NBA as their fanbase is not as dominated by more conservative white people as say the NFL, which has rules and systems that cater to that fanbase far more.

The PL could learn from this, as they claim to be so interested in their "product" dominating the global football marketplace, and seriously think about allowing attacking play to be encouraged more. Would it benefit City? Over the short term, maybe, but odd that Pep has received a lot of praise for helping the PL move to more attacking oriented managers in place than ever, playing out of the back, as well as recruitment and more development of attack minded players within the UK. Even England as a team has more attacking oriented players and tries to embody this style more so than I can ever recall or am aware of. The Burnley's and Big Sam's of the world may have their place, particularly at lower levels of the sport where athletes and skill will be less, but they also are never going to attract most average fans to the sport. It's called the "beautiful game" not the "lump it up to a big oaf and fight for second balls game".

I believe they should reconsider how they are using VAR, particularly for taking away goals and allowing defenders to get away with things that either outside of the penalty box would not be allowed as it will actually add to the sense of fairness, because of the concerns our fans and now others are seeing about enforcing pens vs handballs on attackers in the box.

Do I expect this to happen? No, but they should listen if they have hopes to keep the sport and league as popular as it is.
 
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Spot the difference

1. scores in the opponents’ goal directly from their hand/arm
2. gains possession/control of the ball after it has touched their hand/arm and then Scores in the opponents goal

What is the minimum amount of touches inclusive of handball to score in the opponents goal in sentence 1 and how many touches including handball does it take to score in sentence 2.

The answer to sentence 1 is one touch. The answer to sentence 2 is at least two touches.

Now for a player to meet the criteria of sentence 2, he would have to be the next player to touch the ball after it hit his arm in order to score in the opponents goal. That is why the rule is written with reference to possession and or control of the ball after it hits his arm.

It is an offence if a player

  • deliberately touches the ball with their hand/arm, including moving the hand/arm towards the ball

  • gains possession/control of the ball after it has touched their hand/arm and then:
    • scores in the opponents’ goal

    • creates a goal-scoring opportunity

  • scores in the opponents’ goal directly from their hand/arm, even if accidental, including by the goalkeeper
 
They could have simply said " if you accidentally score or accidentally set up a chance with your hand/arm then it's handball"

They have gone out of their way and put in the extra wording for creating a goal scoring opportunity for a reason. Otherwise it makes no sense to do it.
EXACTLY!

Americans deal with this EXACT situation every single day when reading the Second Amendment! Sometimes, we simply lack the focus to see the words for what they are!
 
I see your point but imo if it's at his feet he's under control of it. In that scenario, if attacker handles and scores, yes it's handball.
Laporte had a 50/50 header which he had no control over, could have gone anywhere. If he was in any way in control he would have headed it, not handled it.
That's why the IFAB rules are different for the scorer and the player creating a goal scoring opportunity. It's 2 phases of play. gain control/ then create an opportunity.

They could have simply said " if you accidentally score or accidentally set up a chance with your hand/arm then it's handball"

They have gone out of their way and put in the extra wording for creating a goal scoring opportunity for a reason. Otherwise it makes no sense to do it.

Yep, I get your point here. So, even if a goal doesn't ensue, it's still hand ball because the 'opportunity to score was created.
 

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