VAR Discussion Thread | 2024/25

Sounds like a good idea however Rugby is a very different sport and the kind of decisions that TMO reviews are fundamentally different to the kind of decisions that VAR reviews.
Rugby allows the Video wallah to tell the ref what has happened! The ref then makes a decision on the basis of what has happened. And we hear it all. Football doesn't want us to see 'what happened' so they whisper down the ref's earhole, he might go to the pitchside monitor, and then makes a decision, but we don't know the basis upon which they have made the decision. Wholly unacceptable when livelihoods and millions of pounds are involved. I've no great love for Villa but I think it's appalling the way they been screwed over.
 
Can’t agree.
These players literally play on the extremes. They know the width of the lines to the nth degree and I could pretty much guarantee Henderson knew he was out of his area.
It was deliberate.
Well I can understand your rationale there. At least you're making a calculation as to whether in your mind that was deliberate or not. But I would argue that even if he knew exactly where he was, that just the fact that he was on the borderline would make being sent off harsh there. It's not as if he was in a part of the pitch that such an action would have been unquestionably deliberate (as in committing a foul). I would say that this is very open to interpretation, as to whether he actually knew precisely where he was, as to whether that would be deserving of a red card. I'm just not willing to send a goal keeper off for a non-dangerous, somewhat understandable action given his ability to legally handle the ball in the box, which he was just at the edge of. But I understand where you're coming from and I respect your view on it. You don't have to agree with my take on this but I don't think it's an unreasonable position. You can freely disagree and I can try to understand your view of it.
 
Regardless of whistles, it would be beneficial if it corrected mistakes. This wank convoluted version helps no one. It should also be mic’d up and the replay shown on screen, like rugby a guy referring in the background and someone the ref can talk to if uncertain.
 
Regardless of whistles, it would be beneficial if it corrected mistakes. This wank convoluted version helps no one. It should also be mic’d up and the replay shown on screen, like rugby a guy referring in the background and someone the ref can talk to if uncertain.
What is the corrective action of the referee wrongly stops the game?

Last week in that game, the referee didn't blow the whistle (for whatever reason - I have my suspicions) and VAR got involved and then cleared it (for whatever reason - Again, I have my suspicions).

Today, the referee wrongly stopped the game, and by VAR's own rules they can't intervene.

As a system, it's ripe for manipulation of outcomes - AKA cheating.
 
We never do were soft as fuck and always just take it on the chin
Sometimes it's better to take it on the chin though. What good does filing a complaint actually do? Tons of complaints have been filed about VAR mistakes from various clubs and none have seemed to do a bit of good. It's not as if they need a complaint filed for them to realize what happened and make changes.

I do have respect for those who resist the urge to cry about bad decisions and play the victim. And I don't think it's necessarily a sign of being soft to resist the urge to complain. Maybe it's even a sign of toughness. To endure a wrong and continue to move forward.
 
So, what's wrong with that? Why am I not allowed to have my own opinion on that? I'm giving the benefit of the doubt to the keeper in a borderline situation, that yes he committed a handball but that because it was borderline that he didn't deserve to be sent off.
The poster was asking you a Yes/No exam question. When was the last time you went into an exam and made up your own questions?
 
I have my doubts that the VAR would have intervened even if the referee had let the Villa player put the ball in the net before he gave a foul.

It’s extremely close. Forget this bullshit you hear about needing two hands on the ball. If the ‘keeper even has one finger on the ball when the Villa player first kicks it, it’s a foul.

I’ve only seen a couple of brief replays and I’m not sure. It’s very close. I suspect the VAR would have just stuck with the on-field call anyway, even if the referee had held his whistle a couple of seconds.
 
I have my doubts that the VAR would have intervened even if the referee had let the Villa player put the ball in the net before he gave a foul.

It’s extremely close. Forget this bullshit you hear about needing two hands on the ball. If the ‘keeper even has one finger on the ball when the Villa player first kicks it, it’s a foul.

I’ve only seen a couple of brief replays and I’m not sure. It’s very close. I suspect the VAR would have just stuck with the on-field call anyway, even if the referee had held his whistle a couple of seconds.
Interesting take. However the prevailing consensus seems to be that he failed to gain or secure control of the ball. He appeared to merely be fumbling around with it and unable to grasp it even for a moment. Failing to grasp it, he could have also apparently pinned it to the ground by applying pressure to the top of the ball. But the ball in effect remained loose and free of the keeper's control which would have allowed it to remain live.

I would expect that had the referee not blown the whistle when he did it would have been counted as a goal one way or the other. Because had the whistle not been blown until after the ball hit the back of the net lets say, then that would have given the impression that the goal was good, at least initially, and would have given the impression that the goal counting was the on-field decision. The referee would have had to then explain to the VARs that his decision was a foul and not that of a goal, which would lead to a review and then the controversy would have been that the referee was trying to disallow the goal. In any event it would likely have gone to VAR and the goal would have been confirmed. And we may not even have ever known that the ref thought that a foul had occurred.
 
You're making the same mistake that a previous poster made, which is to conflate the term handball (as in actually handing the ball) with the term handball (as in the foul of a handball). Anotherwords, acting as if a deliberate handball by a goal keeper is inherently an infraction no matter where he is.

So to answer your question directly, as I stated before, YES he deliberately hand balled it, HOWEVER as he is allowed to handball it just inside the box, it is not deliberate as in meaning to commit a foul due to his proximity to the box.

This is not hard to understand. He reached across the border from an area that he was allowed to do that action to an area that he wasn't allowed to do that action. My grounds for not considering it a deliberate foul is due to him being right there on the borderline. Notwithstanding the fact that he was on the retreat and managed to get himself back into the body while looking down pitch so his eyes were not looking at the ground at where the exact position of the line was.

He committed a foul indeed, he reached over that boundary. But it wasn't an egregious or severe foul that should rise to the level of a sending off in my view. It's not an unreasonable position to take. He was very clearly "on the margins" of that being perfectly allowed. And due to being on the borderline, it should be penalized appropriately. There needs to be a middle ground, an action shouldn't go from being perfectly legal on one edge of a line to an automatic red card on the other. That's too stark of a contrast in a situation where it would have been exceedingly difficult for the GK to know precisely where he was in that situation.

I'm not making any mistake and I'm not conflating anything. What I am doing is trying to keep the facts of the case and how the Laws interpret these facts as simple as possible.

In the simplest form, and your answers are these:

1. Was it a handball offence? Yes
2. Was Henderson's act deliberate? Yes

And you say above that Henderson deliberately handled the ball. So there we have it. Deliberate handball, and that leads to the next question, was it a DGSO, and it clearly was.

That's where the matter starts and ends. Your ridiculous mitigating circumstances are totally irrelevant, no matter what fancy words you apply to them. It doesn't matter that Henderson was just outside his area - because The Laws do not allow for this to be used as an excuse or in mitigation. It doesn't matter that this seems unfair to Henderson. Football is unfair sometimes.

The Laws state that a defender should be cautioned for accidental handball leading to a penalty. Imagine this happening twice in one game and a player being dismissed for two accidental handballs, leaving his team two goals down and a player down. Not very fair, but The Law doesn't allow for fairness to be taken into consideration.

Laws are black and white. Did it happen or didn't it? Was it a goal or wasn't it? Was he onside or offside? Believe me when I say referees do not have this grey area where the goalkeeper is allowed to handle the ball without facing the sanction. They do not have a sliding scale of punishments based on severity of offence. I know this because I have officiated at a high level with PL referees. These mitigating circumstances exist only in your imagination.

Please don't respond by telling me I have misunderstood, or I am wrong. In your obstinacy, you have become blinded to the fact that you are in a very small minority, and some of the people you disagree with are former professional footballers and referees.
 
Please don't respond by telling me I have misunderstood, or I am wrong. In your obstinacy, you have become blinded to the fact that you are in a very small minority, and some of the people you disagree with are former professional footballers and referees.
Don't worry, I won't respond by telling you that you're wrong. I see this as subjective, as in there is no right or wrong. Only one's interpretation of the way the rules are written and trying to parse that with what occurred.

In the simplest form, and your answers are these:

1. Was it a handball offence? Yes
2. Was Henderson's act deliberate? Yes

And you say above that Henderson deliberately handled the ball. So there we have it. Deliberate handball, and that leads to the next question, was it a DGSO, and it clearly was.
You're trying to oversimplify it by, yes, conflating the term handball as it has a double meaning in this case. The act of the handing of the ball by the GK and the act of committing a handball foul.

As to whether or not the handball was deliberate, once again, yes, he deliberately hand balled it, which the GK is allowed to do within the box. However he did so here with his arm extended over the line. So as to the infraction of a handball, that action doesn't make it a deliberate foul given where it was, on the very borderline on what is allowed and what isn't.

The larger point that I'm trying to get across is that an action shouldn't go from completely legal to an automatic red card based on which edge of the line you are on. That's an untenable position in any interpretation of the LOTG. As you would know if you have experience as an official, red cards are reserved for severe or egregious fouls. This foul was very clearly on the boundary of being perfectly legal so therefore a red card is not appropriate.
 
Can’t agree.
These players literally play on the extremes. They know the width of the lines to the nth degree and I could pretty much guarantee Henderson knew he was out of his area.
It was deliberate.
The goalkeeper's job includes knowing his angles. Henderson knew exactly where he was and what he was doing. It's irrelevant anyway, because The Laws don't allow referees to be lenient for handballs that are only just handballs. Imagine the linesman today allowing Nunes to carry on with the attack because the ball only just went over the line for a throw in.
 
The goalkeeper's job includes knowing his angles. Henderson knew exactly where he was and what he was doing. It's irrelevant anyway, because The Laws don't allow referees to be lenient for handballs that are only just handballs. Imagine the linesman today allowing Nunes to carry on with the attack because the ball only just went over the line for a throw in.
You are not differentiating between the enforcement of a foul vs the carding of a foul. So this example is not relevant. I agree with you that handball is indeed black and white. The GK either handles it inside the box or out. I get that, agree with that, no issue with that. It's the carding of a marginal and non-dangerous foul in this case that I object to rising to the level of a red card.
 
How the hell did Rice get away with that handball? He started with his hands behind his back when the guy shot, and brought his hand up to block it. VAR gave nothing. It's a nonsense
 
Don't worry, I won't respond by telling you that you're wrong. I see this as subjective, as in there is no right or wrong. Only one's interpretation of the way the rules are written and trying to parse that with what occurred.


You're trying to oversimplify it by, yes, conflating the term handball as it has a double meaning in this case. The act of the handing of the ball by the GK and the act of committing a handball foul.

As to whether or not the handball was deliberate, once again, yes, he deliberately hand balled it, which the GK is allowed to do within the box. However he did so here with his arm extended over the line. So as to the infraction of a handball, that action doesn't make it a deliberate foul given where it was, on the very borderline on what is allowed and what isn't.

The larger point that I'm trying to get across is that an action shouldn't go from completely legal to an automatic red card based on which edge of the line you are on. That's an untenable position in any interpretation of the LOTG. As you would know if you have experience as an official, red cards are reserved for severe or egregious fouls. This foul was very clearly on the boundary of being perfectly legal so therefore a red card is not appropriate.
You are totally wrong. The Laws are written in order to remove ambiguity. That's why there are so many clauses and clarifications in them.

Show me in The Laws of the Game where it says there are two types of handball. Show me where PGMOL had said they didn't take action against Henderson because he was only just outside his area. These things only live in your imagination.

Controversy only happens when officials start to apply their own interpretations that differ from the Laws.
 
You are not differentiating between the enforcement of a foul vs the carding of a foul. So this example is not relevant. I agree with you that handball is indeed black and white. The GK either handles it inside the box or out. I get that, agree with that, no issue with that. It's the carding of a marginal and non-dangerous foul in this case that I object to rising to the level of a red card.
Kovacic committed a non-dangerous foul on Tuesday and saw red.

It seems to me that you have your own version of the rule book, and it's littered with sliding scales and pleas of mitigation.
 
You are totally wrong. The Laws are written in order to remove ambiguity. That's why there are so many clauses and clarifications in them.

Show me in The Laws of the Game where it says there are two types of handball. Show me where PGMOL had said they didn't take action against Henderson because he was only just outside his area. These things only live in your imagination.
You've created a strawman. I didn't make such arguments. I gave my take on the situation and expressed an opinion that a red card would have been "harsh" there due to his proximity to the edge of the box. While I didn't claim that I knew that this consideration went into their decision, I do wonder if it may have and would like to hear the VAR audio for clarification. I also pointed out that, at least for situations inside the box, consideration for handballs generally and how they are carded does depend on whether they conclude that it was deliberate or not.

What is curious about the laws is that it would seem that while they have this consideration for handballs inside the box, they would seem to not for handballs outside the box. On the other hand, it is unclear if that is applied to GK handballs outside the box. But it begs the question, why would the carding of a handball (for outfield players) be more lenient inside the box than outside the box? And the double or triple jeopardy argument doesn't hold water because conventional wisdom would have you believe that the punishment (carding) of an infraction shouldn't change by crossing the line, at least not for the outfield players. The GK situation, on the other hand, is a unique one given that it's only a foul outside and not in, but that doesn't by definition apply it to the language which presumably is meant to be applied to handballs related to outfield players. Still the distinction is important and curious on a number of levels.

Controversy only happens when officials start to apply their own interpretations that differ from the Laws.
That's a misnomer I would say. And the evidence of this is when they tried to make handballs factual in the early days of VAR only for it to cause far more controversy then there ever was before. You see, as a reaction to VAR being introduced they tried to streamline the way in which fouls are interpreted and the results are nothing short of disastrous in that it has caused more controversy than ever before and it caused them to rethink all that and rectify many of those changes. And in the case of the Henderson handball, their own red tape for what they need to conclude about it has caused them to be unable to correct the error, which created the controversy.

As a former official though I can appreciate your point of the need to apply the laws "by the book" and on that point I can agree with. However I would also point out that VAR has had the effect of changing many of the LOTG which in turn have caused far more controversy than intended. Further, the inconsistency of the decision-making process in VAR decisions would suggest that they are in fact applying their own interpretations to many situations and what someone like me is looking for is clarity, consistency, and most importantly common sense.

For example, look at the proposal by Barcelona :


Their goal is to bring greater clarity, fairness, and accountability to decisions that can heavily influence match outcomes.

The first of Barcelona’s proposals calls for the unification of refereeing standards.

The club want VAR referees to follow clearly defined and consistent criteria when judging incidents like penalties, handballs, or red cards.

etc

So on the one hand you're stressing the point about the need to apply the laws rather than make up their own interpretations of the laws in the decision-making process, which of course I agree with. However that's precisely what they have been accused of not doing on a regular basis!

Thirdly, the club is asking for clear, objective criteria for VAR interventions. Rather than leaving everything to subjective interpretation, Barcelona believe VAR reviews should only be triggered when certain concrete conditions are met.

So what Barcelona is asking for for what you're also asking for. Clear and consistent application of the laws. The problem is, many of the laws and the changes to the laws on a year to year basis remain unclear and are open to interpretation. And further, football by its very nature has always relied on a largely subjective element to the decision-making process. VAR has tried to make a lot of that subjectivity factual and has demonstrably failed miserably at that.
 

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