Veganism

[JoeMercer'sWay]

Just because an animal has a nervous system does not mean that it shares our nervous system. As intelligence and other parts of genetics have evolved with humans at the very apex of them developmentally, it would logically follow that we also feel intense levels of pain that animals do not.

The point I'm rather poorly attempting to make here is that we're again guilty of anthropomorphising the animal world. Maybe what we classify as pain feels completely different to an animal? Maybe they feel absolutely no physical pain at all but they use the same sensory perceptions which triggers a "pain response" within them without the actual sensation of pain a bit like how language works in some creatures?

what gets me is people are happy to go "oh, don't kill the poor animals" yet in the next breath refer to others as Neanderthals, demeaning our ancestral relatives who were far closer to us and more intelligent than any current animal.

 

[Damocles]

what gets me is people are happy to go "oh, don't kill the poor animals" yet in the next breath refer to others as Neanderthals, demeaning our ancestral relatives who were far closer to us and more intelligent than any current animal.

We're badly named or at least people don't appreciate us in the context of other humans. We are one of six human sub-species that has existed and one of two homo sapien sub-sub-species.

 

[KenTheLandlord]

Equating reaction and pain is a very bad idea because then you're suggesting that pain requires some form of verbal communication system.

---Does pain require a communication system? I have not said that, you don't always scream when you feel pain or even tell others if you have had a painful experience. A low level pain could be a paper cut, fuckin nasty little cut but no biggy, you certainly would not roll around the floor like a desperate striker after a tap in the box, but you feel the pain. No would you go around the office moaning and carrying on.

Lizards don't react in the same way as monkeys because they don't have the required biology to scream. Monkeys however scream, exactly like humans do, so we recognise this as pain. Another example of the anthropomorphism of natural biology.

---- I was saying this in one of the previous posts, just because an animal doesn't have the same bodily make up as us, they will still shift it it hurts

 

[JoeMercer'sWay]

well good, otherwise they wouldn't last long in nature.

"oooh, it's biting m'leg off, I know, I'll just sit here and let it carry on".

 

[KenTheLandlord]

well good, otherwise they wouldn't last long in nature.

"oooh, it's biting m'leg off, I know, I'll just sit here and let it carry on".

Thank you Mr Attenborough, so you are now on board in the pain game.

 

[JoeMercer'sWay]

Thank you Mr Attenborough, so you are now on board in the pain game.

Always been on board with natural selection and self-preservation, I just also appreciate that nature has created animals to be nutritious and suitable for consumption.

 

[Tuearts right boot]

I've just driven past a herd of Welsh Blacks on the side of Cader Idris. Never have I seen such a happy contented herd of cows. Fresh green grass, sun on their backs, fresh flowers, all the joys of living in the country. One even had a PS2. Quite frankly I'd rather enjoy a trip to market in an Ivor Williams trailer if these were the terms. And I'll bet a pound to a pinch of shit they taste bloody gorgeous.

 

[1961_vintage]

I've just driven past a herd of Welsh Blacks on the side of Cader Idris. Never have I seen such a happy contented herd of cows. Fresh green grass, sun on their backs, fresh flowers, all the joys of living in the country. One even had a PS2. Quite frankly I'd rather enjoy a trip to market in an Ivor Williams trailer if these were the terms. And I'll bet a pound to a pinch of shit they taste bloody gorgeous.

..... and they get a free airshow!!

 

[KenTheLandlord]

Always been on board with natural selection and self-preservation, I just also appreciate that nature has created animals to be nutritious and suitable for consumption.

They certainly have but that is where humans have moved from animals. Animals eat to survive, whilst human animal farms fulfill this need for humans they do a greater cost. For both profit and with minimal respect for the animal. Lions don't have Zebra nor Gazelle farms they eat to live and let the animal they will eat live, until they need to eat it.
Nature is unbelievably complex and we have had the power to fuck about with it for a relatively short space of time who knows the long term impact

 

[steviemc]

The facts are that animals feel pain and it is significant. We can appreciate it because we are animals too. Now if you accept those 2 facts and continue to perpetuate the needless suffering then the judgment is made automatically. To those people only, not the ignorant. I know people don't like to think themselves as selfishd, but what are you left with?

I'll post links about pain and neurons and brains and nervous systems later supporting those facts.

As we're unable to confirm the exact level of pain or sadness felt by animals, any argument could easily be flawed. On that basis alone it's wrong to suggest that people 'must' be selfish to continue eating meat whilst being aware of the information available. You're using the argument 'I think' as if it's a truth.

With regard to selfish actions, I'm not sure I see how changing from a meat-eating diet to a diet relying on agriculture is any less selfish. Agriculture is probably the most destructive thing we do to the planet, exposing livestock to new diseases and destroying animal habitats. Moving from one act of supposed selfishness to another doesn't give you any moral high ground at all.

 

[Mad Eyed Screamer]

Each to their own but the ones that start preaching do my tits in

As a veggie of many years I agree.... those that preach give the rest of us a bad name

 

[Mad Eyed Screamer]

Here veggie veggie veggie...
Come and have a smell of this veggie veggie veggie...

Lettuce and nuts and beans not smelling or tasting so good now is it...

There is the myth commonly mentioned by carnivours that all it takes is the wiff of a bacon butty to have veggies slavering at the mouth..... complete bollocks. I cook at work bacon each week and never have any thoughts of sneaking one.

 

[KenTheLandlord]

My mind wanders to this

 

[DiscoSteve]

There is the myth commonly mentioned by carnivours that all it takes is the wiff of a bacon butty to have veggies slavering at the mouth..... complete bollocks. I cook at work bacon each week and never have any thoughts of sneaking one.

rule doesn't apply to the crap bacon you serve in the USA - multiple rashers of danish bacon between two halves of a buttered lancashire oven bottom muffin on the other hand...

 

[Metal Biker]

There is the myth commonly mentioned by carnivours that all it takes is the wiff of a bacon butty to have veggies slavering at the mouth..... complete bollocks. I cook at work bacon each week and never have any thoughts of sneaking one.

Carnivores eat only meat. Ominvores (like humans) have a mixed diet of both. It's also less of a 'myth' and more of a....joke?

 

[RichardDunneOwnGoal]

The same benefits reaped by Carl Lewis, Mike Tyson, Scott Jurek etc (not that I can jump as far as Carl Lewis, but you know what I mean).

Mike Tyson was a vegan during his professional boxing career?

Are you taking the piss?

I know that to be utter bullshit because I've read accounts of what his diet consisted of. I don't have a clue what his diet is like now, and I don't really care, but what you've implied above is clearly bullshit.

Not helping the perception that vegans are prone to being propagandists here mate.

 

[RichardDunneOwnGoal]

Can any Vegans point me in the right direction for meat alternatives?
I'm frequently training throughout the week, need regular protein intake and even though I'm consuming alot I'm still only at 80kg
I tried switching off red meat and chicken to Fish but its just too fucking expensive and I'm just as unsure where its actually farmed.

Seems to be a vegan is to be constantly skinny, no muscle, and skint from having to buy all the fresh local produce.

As far as I understand it, you want to keep your red meat intake to a minimum because of a type of sugar inherent in the meat which the human body finds hard to digest and thus creates and inflammatory response in the body. That inflammatory response is a bad thing, and you want to limit that where possible.

It's why red meat has been linked to an increased risk of bowel cancer.

Poultry though, no such issue to my knowledge. None.

I'd try and limit fish intake as well mate, they contain a lot of environmental pollutants. Heavy metals in particular. The ocean is a mess.

If you're going to eat fish, try and eat species lower down the food chain, as the higher up the food chain you go the greater the concentration of such contaminants will be, as a result of bioaccumulation.

I'm not interested in the ethical argument of veganism, I think Damo's nailed the inconsistencies and hypocrisies of that argument, but I've grown increasingly interested in these health benefits I keep hearing about.

A lot of it seems disputed, but if anyone here is a vegan and wants to convince me of the said benefits, with credible scientific evidence to support said benefits, I'm all ears.

 

[Yaya_Tony]

As far as I understand it, you want to keep your red meat intake to a minimum because of a type of sugar inherent in the meat which the human body finds hard to digest and thus creates and inflammatory response in the body. That inflammatory response is a bad thing, and you want to limit that where possible.

It's why red meat has been linked to an increased risk of bowel cancer.

Poultry though, no such issue to my knowledge. None.

I'd try and limit fish intake as well mate, they contain a lot of environmental pollutants. Heavy metals in particular. The ocean is a mess.

If you're going to eat fish, try and eat species lower down the food chain, as the higher up the food chain you go the greater the concentration of such contaminants will be, as a result of bioaccumulation.

I'm not interested in the ethical argument of veganism, I think Damo's nailed the inconsistencies and hypocrisies of that argument, but I've grown increasingly interested in these health benefits I keep hearing about.

A lot of it seems disputed, but if anyone here is a vegan and wants to convince me of the said benefits, with credible scientific evidence to support said benefits, I'm all ears.

Heavy metal is mint

 

[Bill Walker]

Its amazing

If a poster claims not to eat meat because of animal suffering he's a loony preacher arsehole

but if he came on and said I dont eat beef, Im a Hindu and I respect the cow

everyone would be ok with that

 

[xthelegendx]

As far as I understand it, you want to keep your red meat intake to a minimum because of a type of sugar inherent in the meat which the human body finds hard to digest and thus creates and inflammatory response in the body. That inflammatory response is a bad thing, and you want to limit that where possible.

It's why red meat has been linked to an increased risk of bowel cancer.

Poultry though, no such issue to my knowledge. None.

I'd try and limit fish intake as well mate, they contain a lot of environmental pollutants. Heavy metals in particular. The ocean is a mess.

If you're going to eat fish, try and eat species lower down the food chain, as the higher up the food chain you go the greater the concentration of such contaminants will be, as a result of bioaccumulation.

I'm not interested in the ethical argument of veganism, I think Damo's nailed the inconsistencies and hypocrisies of that argument, but I've grown increasingly interested in these health benefits I keep hearing about.

A lot of it seems disputed, but if anyone here is a vegan and wants to convince me of the said benefits, with credible scientific evidence to support said benefits, I'm all ears.

I hate the fact that any conversation on being veggie/vegan always turns into a confrontational argument by both sides!

RichardDunneOwnGoal thanks for the sensible post if you've never heard of it I recommend https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_China_Study it's a difficult read but if you're truly interested then it does make you think!

I think wether you eat meat or not the one thing that I think most people would or should be against is factory farming! That's the real problem!

injecting chickens with steroids and antibiotics that you then consume yourself and feed to your family! That must concern everyone?

the inhuman way they treat these animals and even the waste management of these places pose a threat to things like clean drinking water, fishing at the levels we do now is killing the oceans infrastructure, for every 1 pound of prawns caught there's a mass amount of unwanted fish caught, killed and thrown back overboard!

I don't care if you like a bacon butty in the morning, but the people who sold you that bacon don't care about you or the pig.... they just want your cash and thats the problem.