Villa Vs City Post Match Thread

[hgblue]

I'm not sure what Yaya would choose but he might well prefer not to have any defensive duties and stroll about wherever he wishes; however that is not a luxury afforded to many midfielders. I am sure that he wants to be on the ball as much as possible and I am sure that is his best role. I ahppen to think the problem for him at Barca was ultimately not Busquets but Xavi.

After thinking long and hard about Yaya, I came to the conclusion that due to his size and age he can't be realistically expected to be an industrious box to box player in the mould of Fernandinho. For example, a lightweight boxer will have a hell of a lot more industry during a fight than a heavyweight purely down the the physics of gravitational forces acting against his body due to the difference in size.

I've never seen a long distance runner with the physique of Yaya nor a top rated sprinter with the physique of Mo Farrah. Toure's body is suited to a specific physical task and I believe that along with his age this needs to be taken into account before we apply a one size fits all philosophy to players and the way they play.

Yaya is a world class player, and I believe we should play to his strengths to get the best out of him for the team's sake and IMO that isn't to be flogging him to death in a 2 man midfield every 3 days. I think it's unfair to say Yaya would love the luxury of being able to just stroll around. His body structure just isn't suited to constant shuttle runs and harrying players all over the pitch for 90 minutes as he is better suited to being the beating heart of our team with 'The twins' doing his graft for him which they are more than happy to do.

No-one expects David Silva to add Fernando-like exertions to his game because that's not the type of player he is and neither is Yaya, but Silva is rarely criticised for his lack of tackling prowess and tracking back. For me the difference between the two is one is expected to track back and the other isn't. Both of them are clinical passer's of the ball and our main creative forces and I think we'd be better suited using them both as such whilst leaving the graft to others who are better suited.

As for barca, I was always led to believe that Yaya wanted to leave because of Barca's dream of playing an all Catalan starting 11 which meant with the emergence of Busquets, Yaya increasingly became his back up as opposed to the main defensive midfielder. I recall watching a Barca pre season friendly where mostly the lesser players and the B team played and Yaya played a more advanced roll. He totally ran the game from central midfield in the absence of Xavi and scored a cracker too. Our gain has definitely been Barca's loss.

A lot of that is pure speculation on your part. Toure has along with Fernandinho almost inhuman stamina. Everyone from Mancini to Txiki have commented on it and it's one of the reasons both our current and previous manager have had no problem in regularly playing him in a 2 man midfield.

I totally agree with what Dribble has posted there, and I suspect we'll see Fernando alongside Fernandinho with Yaya pushed on in the not too distant future. I also suspect that when Pellegrini does this it will be hailed as a tactical masterstroke on here. The funny thing is that after the open warfare on here over Hughes and Mancini, the only thing we've got left to argue about is whether we should play a two or three man midfield, and both sides of that debate surely accept that the other side has a valid point?

 

[Deleted member 58678]

If we used our Plan B, that doesn't mean I would expect Yaya just to stand on the halfway line watching on if we were getting mullered in midfield. I would still expect him to get stuck in as a No 10 but with a licence to roam as he saw fit between defence and attack.

The main advantage would be me not having a coronary every time I saw him wheezing his way back into position when one of our attacks had broken down and were defending a counter attack and I'm sure if given the choice he'd prefer it too as he alluded to yesterday.

I'm not sure what Yaya would choose but he might well prefer not to have any defensive duties and stroll about wherever he wishes; however that is not a luxury afforded to many midfielders. I am sure that he wants to be on the ball as much as possible and I am sure that is his best role. I ahppen to think the problem for him at Barca was ultimately not Busquets but Xavi.

After thinking long and hard about Yaya, I came to the conclusion that due to his size and age he can't be realistically expected to be an industrious box to box player in the mould of Fernandinho. For example, a lightweight boxer will have a hell of a lot more industry during a fight than a heavyweight purely down the the physics of gravitational forces acting against his body due to the difference in size.

I've never seen a long distance runner with the physique of Yaya nor a top rated sprinter with the physique of Mo Farrah. Toure's body is suited to a specific physical task and I believe that along with his age this needs to be taken into account before we apply a one size fits all philosophy to players and the way they play.

Yaya is a world class player, and I believe we should play to his strengths to get the best out of him for the team's sake and IMO that isn't to be flogging him to death in a 2 man midfield every 3 days. I think it's unfair to say Yaya would love the luxury of being able to just stroll around. His body structure just isn't suited to constant shuttle runs and harrying players all over the pitch for 90 minutes as he is better suited to being the beating heart of our team with 'The twins' doing his graft for him which they are more than happy to do.

No-one expects David Silva to add Fernando-like exertions to his game because that's not the type of player he is and neither is Yaya, but Silva is rarely criticised for his lack of tackling prowess and tracking back. For me the difference between the two is one is expected to track back and the other isn't. Both of them are clinical passer's of the ball and our main creative forces and I think we'd be better suited using them both as such whilst leaving the graft to others who are better suited.

As for barca, I was always led to believe that Yaya wanted to leave because of Barca's dream of playing an all Catalan starting 11 which meant with the emergence of Busquets, Yaya increasingly became his back up as opposed to the main defensive midfielder. I recall watching a Barca pre season friendly where mostly the lesser players and the B team played and Yaya played a more advanced roll. He totally ran the game from central midfield in the absence of Xavi and scored a cracker too. Our gain has definitely been Barca's loss.

Aye, spot on.

Always play to your best players strengths, or play against their weaknesses.

 

[Dribble]

I'm not sure what Yaya would choose but he might well prefer not to have any defensive duties and stroll about wherever he wishes; however that is not a luxury afforded to many midfielders. I am sure that he wants to be on the ball as much as possible and I am sure that is his best role. I ahppen to think the problem for him at Barca was ultimately not Busquets but Xavi.

After thinking long and hard about Yaya, I came to the conclusion that due to his size and age he can't be realistically expected to be an industrious box to box player in the mould of Fernandinho. For example, a lightweight boxer will have a hell of a lot more industry during a fight than a heavyweight purely down the the physics of gravitational forces acting against his body due to the difference in size.

I've never seen a long distance runner with the physique of Yaya nor a top rated sprinter with the physique of Mo Farrah. Toure's body is suited to a specific physical task and I believe that along with his age this needs to be taken into account before we apply a one size fits all philosophy to players and the way they play.

Yaya is a world class player, and I believe we should play to his strengths to get the best out of him for the team's sake and IMO that isn't to be flogging him to death in a 2 man midfield every 3 days. I think it's unfair to say Yaya would love the luxury of being able to just stroll around. His body structure just isn't suited to constant shuttle runs and harrying players all over the pitch for 90 minutes as he is better suited to being the beating heart of our team with 'The twins' doing his graft for him which they are more than happy to do.

No-one expects David Silva to add Fernando-like exertions to his game because that's not the type of player he is and neither is Yaya, but Silva is rarely criticised for his lack of tackling prowess and tracking back. For me the difference between the two is one is expected to track back and the other isn't. Both of them are clinical passer's of the ball and our main creative forces and I think we'd be better suited using them both as such whilst leaving the graft to others who are better suited.

As for barca, I was always led to believe that Yaya wanted to leave because of Barca's dream of playing an all Catalan starting 11 which meant with the emergence of Busquets, Yaya increasingly became his back up as opposed to the main defensive midfielder. I recall watching a Barca pre season friendly where mostly the lesser players and the B team played and Yaya played a more advanced roll. He totally ran the game from central midfield in the absence of Xavi and scored a cracker too. Our gain has definitely been Barca's loss.

A lot of that is pure speculation on your part. Toure has along with Fernandinho almost inhuman stamina. Everyone from Mancini to Txiki have commented on it and it's one of the reasons both our current and previous manager have had no problem in regularly playing him in a 2 man midfield.

In terms of speculation I can't recall ever hearing or reading an account where Mancini or Txiki have referred to Toure's stamina but if they have I will accept what they say. However, Milner, Fernandinho, Zabaleta and Fernando are players I regularly hear people commenting on their stamina. As opposed to that, I have heard people repeatedly comment that Toure is lazy, languid, looks uninterested and constantly knackered and to qualify that all you have to do is look at the Toure thread.

I'm not blindly defending Toure, far from it. I just decided to take a step back a few weeks ago and analyse exactly what we were asking him to do in a 2 man midfield and in my opinion I think he'd be better suited further forward dictating the play than being relied upon to be in the middle of the midfield battle, up front to score and in defence to defend.

At his age and with his size, I personally don't think he's suited to that task. If Mancini, Pellegrini and Txiki believe otherwise then that's fine, I just see it different that's all and judging by his interview last weekend, so does Yaya.

 

[BillyShears]

In terms of speculation I can't recall ever hearing or reading an account where Mancini or Txiki have referred to Toure's stamina but if they have I will accept what they say. However, Milner, Fernandinho, Zabaleta and Fernando are players I regularly hear people commenting on their stamina. As opposed to that, I have heard people repeatedly comment that Toure is lazy, languid, looks uninterested and constantly knackered and to qualify that all you have to do is look at the Toure thread.

I'm not blindly defending Toure, far from it. I just decided to take a step back a few weeks ago and analyse exactly what we were asking him to do in a 2 man midfield and in my opinion I think he'd be better suited further forward dictating the play than being relied upon to be in the middle of the midfield battle, up front to score and in defence to defend.

At his age and with his size, I personally don't think he's suited to that task. If Mancini, Pellegrini and Txiki believe otherwise then that's fine, I just see it different that's all and judging by his interview last weekend, so does Yaya.

I don't think it particularly matters what you or Yaya think in this instance. The team is what is important, and Toure plays a very particular role within our team.

It's funny but most of the jibes about Yaya being lazy or being unsuited to a two man midfield come from people who seemingly only have the most fleeting grasp of what the various functions within our team are and what the players' responsibilities are. They're quick to call Toure lazy for not "getting back" and lauding Fernandinho for having to do "two players' jobs". It's never crossed their minds I'm presuming that in fact that is Dinho's job (to get back and sit in front of the back four) whilst Toure's job is much more designed around being available outside our own box to start a counter when the oppositions attacks break down. Hence he's not going to be busting a gut to get back unless we're being overloaded.

Also the reason Mancini and Pellegrini (and Txiki) refer to yaya as superhuman is because his size allied with his stamina and technical ability make him well - super human. The fact you see these things as somehow a negative or things which limit what he can do is unfortunate and I think you're well wide of the mark.

 

[OB1]

In terms of speculation I can't recall ever hearing or reading an account where Mancini or Txiki have referred to Toure's stamina but if they have I will accept what they say. However, Milner, Fernandinho, Zabaleta and Fernando are players I regularly hear people commenting on their stamina. As opposed to that, I have heard people repeatedly comment that Toure is lazy, languid, looks uninterested and constantly knackered and to qualify that all you have to do is look at the Toure thread.

I'm not blindly defending Toure, far from it. I just decided to take a step back a few weeks ago and analyse exactly what we were asking him to do in a 2 man midfield and in my opinion I think he'd be better suited further forward dictating the play than being relied upon to be in the middle of the midfield battle, up front to score and in defence to defend.

At his age and with his size, I personally don't think he's suited to that task. If Mancini, Pellegrini and Txiki believe otherwise then that's fine, I just see it different that's all and judging by his interview last weekend, so does Yaya.

I don't think it particularly matters what you or Yaya think in this instance. The team is what is important, and Toure plays a very particular role within our team.

It's funny but most of the jibes about Yaya being lazy or being unsuited to a two man midfield come from people who seemingly only have the most fleeting grasp of what the various functions within our team are and what the players' responsibilities are. They're quick to call Toure lazy for not "getting back" and lauding Fernandinho for having to do "two players' jobs". It's never crossed their minds I'm presuming that in fact that is Dinho's job (to get back and sit in front of the back four) whilst Toure's job is much more designed around being available outside our own box to start a counter when the oppositions attacks break down. Hence he's not going to be busting a gut to get back unless we're being overloaded.

Also the reason Mancini and Pellegrini (and Txiki) refer to yaya as superhuman is because his size allied with his stamina and technical ability make him well - super human. The fact you see these things as somehow a negative or things which limit what he can do is unfortunate and I think you're well wide of the mark.

I would have thought it was plain for all to see that Yaya has very high fitness levels and stamina. He plays virtually every game and is very rarely taken off during a game; he is consistently the most involved player on the pitch and I would imagine his distance covered stats for the league if they were easily available would hold up to scrutiny. Already, he has covered the most distance in the two UCL games we have played; although only a handful of players have played 180 mins and Milner, Navas and Nasri all covered more ground per minute.

One reason why the power play of pushing him forward late in a game is so effective is because he has the stamina to make bulldozing runs late in the game against waning opponents.

As you point out, he doesn't sprint back like Dinho because that is more Dinho's job than Yaya's. Yaya ,in my mind, tries to read the game and do as much covering as he think s he needs to. He paces himself. He is a very clever player. I mentioned this before but when Vinnie gave the ball away in his own half against Villa and exposed the team to a counter, Yaya got back pronto and put a block in on the edge of our box.

The question of age is though relevant and it could catch up with him more quickly than a Will'othe wisp like Silva.

 

[BillyShears]

The question of age is though relevant and it could catch up with him more quickly than a Will'othe wisp like Silva.

I guess that's the same for all players post 30. Although for me more than Yaya's body catching up with him, I think it's highly probable he may well just fancy playing out the last years of his career in a league which is less demanding than the PL and at a club where maybe his status will be recognised more fully.

It's tricky for him at City because Kun is the poster boy, Kompany's the captain, Silva's the magician.

Anyway we'll see - for the moment though his performance against Villa and to a lesser extent Roma, point towards a player determined to be as influential for us this season as he was last.

 

[Dribble]

In terms of speculation I can't recall ever hearing or reading an account where Mancini or Txiki have referred to Toure's stamina but if they have I will accept what they say. However, Milner, Fernandinho, Zabaleta and Fernando are players I regularly hear people commenting on their stamina. As opposed to that, I have heard people repeatedly comment that Toure is lazy, languid, looks uninterested and constantly knackered and to qualify that all you have to do is look at the Toure thread.

I'm not blindly defending Toure, far from it. I just decided to take a step back a few weeks ago and analyse exactly what we were asking him to do in a 2 man midfield and in my opinion I think he'd be better suited further forward dictating the play than being relied upon to be in the middle of the midfield battle, up front to score and in defence to defend.

At his age and with his size, I personally don't think he's suited to that task. If Mancini, Pellegrini and Txiki believe otherwise then that's fine, I just see it different that's all and judging by his interview last weekend, so does Yaya.

I don't think it particularly matters what you or Yaya think in this instance. The team is what is important, and Toure plays a very particular role within our team.

It's funny but most of the jibes about Yaya being lazy or being unsuited to a two man midfield come from people who seemingly only have the most fleeting grasp of what the various functions within our team are and what the players' responsibilities are. They're quick to call Toure lazy for not "getting back" and lauding Fernandinho for having to do "two players' jobs". It's never crossed their minds I'm presuming that in fact that is Dinho's job (to get back and sit in front of the back four) whilst Toure's job is much more designed around being available outside our own box to start a counter when the oppositions attacks break down. Hence he's not going to be busting a gut to get back unless we're being overloaded.

Also the reason Mancini and Pellegrini (and Txiki) refer to yaya as superhuman is because his size allied with his stamina and technical ability make him well - super human. The fact you see these things as somehow a negative or things which limit what he can do is unfortunate and I think you're well wide of the mark.

Like I said I won't argue with Mancini, Pellegrini or Txiki and I wholeheartedly agree with you that the team is paramount in every way. If you believe it is Pellegrini's instruction that Fernandinho plays defensive central midfield on his own, I may not agree with you but you are entitled to your belief the same as anyone else.

May I just say that I have had more than a fleeting glance at Yaya's role in our team over the years and it is based on this I've formed my personal opinion of his situation and unique talent. I don't see Yaya's technical ability, size and stamina as a negative and don't know what impression I've given you to form that opinion.

Yaya's is a special talent, the like of which I reckon in years to come, people will be looking for the new Yaya Toure just like they are always looking for the new Vieira, Messi or Ronaldo et al. Myself I think super human is a bit far fetched, but a one off? I might just stretch to that. All said and done I just don't think we should be asking a soon to be 32 year old, 14 stone, 6ft 4" bohemoth to be chasing 10 stone whippets about a field for 90 minutes as I think his talent would be better served further up the field with high energy CM's who are built for the job behind him. It's horses for courses mate......

 

[supercity88]

I think it is time we played Yaya further forward in order to get the best out of him. I think last season he embraced the midfield freedom Fernandinho gave him by marshalling the midfield. But this season I think he has for one reason or another looked a bit lacking in his willingness to get back and defend. The annoying thing about Yaya is that he could run through the entire opposition side - as he did at Palace and at home to Villa last season - but he doesn't do it that often. In the CL he is the player that needs to step up - he was excellent whilst others were nervous at home to Barca last season, but I think now is the time where we need to push him forward and play Fernando and Fernandinho for their energy. We have Milner, Lampard, Jovetic, Silva, Nasri, Navas and Yaya who are all capable of playing one or more positions across a 3 behind Dzeko or Aguero and we should allow them more freedom by having the Fernando's run the midfield.

 

[BillyShears]

All said and done I just don't think we should be asking a soon to be 32 year old, 14 stone, 6ft 4" bohemoth to be chasing 10 stone whippets about a field for 90 minutes as I think his talent would be better served further up the field with high energy CM's who are built for the job behind him. It's horses for courses mate......

It is indeed horses for courses, but for me the number 10 horse will always belong to Silva. As OB1 says, one of the reasons that Yaya is so effective pushed further up late in games is because the opposition have tired. I remember even under Mancini when he tried a couple of times to play that way with Yaya pushed up from the start it just didn't work the way it did when it was used late in games.

Ultimately though this discussion always begins from the idea that Toure and Fernandinho (or Fernando) can't play in a two man midfield for us. This fundamentally I disagree with, and both Mancini and Pellegrini have patently disagreed with as they've both consistently played him in a two man midfield.

 

[FantasyIreland]

I think it is time we played Yaya further forward in order to get the best out of him.

Unless squad restrictions deem otherwise,this shouldn't even be a debate imo,it's unfair,on all.....to play him in a position where he looks uncomfortable and quite often struggles,and,more bizarrely,we're making life unnecessarily difficult for ourselves.