What Is The True Status Of The Champions League?

[Andy TheCatalyst Morrison]

It's difficult to have a debate with someone as wilfully ignorant as you appear to be.

If you'd bothered reading the responses to your earlier posts, you'd have known that Hamburg beat Real Madrid in their semi-final and 'bang average' Bruges beat Juventus. You seem more preoccupied by the fact that they're not traditionally 'big teams'.

According to one of your earlier pearls of wisdom, 'you could get to the semi-final without playing anyone more than half-decent', which is presumably why you've completely ignored the fact that Liverpool played St Etienne in the Third Round in 1977, the same St Etienne team that reached the final the year before.

Jeez, you get called out for being insulting and you go straight back there with "wilfully ignorant". We have a difference of opinion, get over yourself.

And yes, I said you could get to the semi-final without playing anyone more than half decent, not you won't meet anyone decent before the semi-final. Look at Forest in 1980 for evidence of that (Oster, Arges Pitesti, Dynamo Berlin).

I remember that period of football very well and I happen to disagree with you about how good teams were. St Etienne have never won a European competition, neither have Bruges or Malmo. Hamburg and Borussia have won a couple each. I'm not saying (and haven't said) that there were no good teams back then and it was easy to win it, I'm saying I'd rather play those teams than recent times Barcelona, Madrid, Juve, Bayern, Liverpool etc and that it was easier to win it then than it is now.

 

[dickie davies]

You're dismissing some very good teams there.

Eastern European teams like Dynamo Dresden and Dynamo Berlin were state funded and their best players weren't allowed to leave.

Borussia Mönchengladbach were one of 'Europe's elite' at the time. They also had Allan Simonsen, the European Footballer of the Year in their team when they played Liverpool in '77.

Hamburg had Keegan who was the current European Footballer of the Year when they played Forest in '80.

St Etienne had Platini and Rocheteau.

If the European Cup was easier to win, why didn't the bigger teams win it every year like they do most years in the Champions League?

Manchester City v Fenerbahce in 1969 got beat in the first round

 

[jrb]

Would the European Cup be easier to win now, if it was still in it’s original format?

City.
Barcelona
Ajax.
Bayern Munich.
Juventus.
Celtic.(home advantage)
PSG.
Porto.
Etc.

So you have at least 7 decent teams who could cause City problems over 2 legs if City were drawn against either of them in a straight knockout competition.

Instead City ended up in a group where they were guaranteed a top 2 finish. Then into the last 16, which resulted in us getting the easiest draw. And let’s be honest, we should have beat Spurs over 2 legs. Then Ajax. So City only faced stern opposition when they reached the last 8 of the CL. Only to be knocked out by a team that finished 3rd in the PL last season, and by VAR.

Conclusion.The CL is shite!

 

[hello]

I answered this when seeing the question posed in another thread but its probably more relevant here, finalists that weren't champions are in bold, should have done it the other way round in hindsight.

Personally, I think they should asterisk all teams who have won the "Champions" League without actually being Champions the season before...

I thought surely this has been done by UEFA as a point of interest\marketing tool! I looked but couldn’t find it, so decided to do it myself, having done so its easy to see why UEFA don’t make it particularly easy to find out.


The champions league was rebranded for the 1992-93 season and was still for champions. The exception to this historically was the Champions league\ European Cup holders which is fair dos, they qualified the first time by winning the league and have every right to defend the title.


In 1997 UEFA cash Cow Cup was effectively formed with Runners up being added and in 1999 up to 4 teams per federation.


So since 1997 there have been 46 finalists including this year. Of those 46 finalists 16 were league Champions of their federation and 30 were not, that’s an astonishing 65% of Champions League finalists that aren’t actually champions!


A few points of interests, the first all non-champions league final was 1999 When the Rags won their historic treble, this was also the first non-champions v non-champions final of which their have been 8 from the 23 years compare with 2 from 23 UCL Final’s with 2 champions the last was 2009


Real Madrid Have appeared in 4 finals as non-champions winning all 4 compared to 2 wins as Champions (They are the opposite of Kloop 6 UCL finals 6 wins)


The last League champions to win the UCL were Barcelona in 2011


Source data is below if it formats ok.


Year Country Winners Score Runners up RU Country Host Attendance Winners Champions Runner UP Champions

1996–97 Germany Borussia Dortmund 3–1 Juventus Italy Olympiastadion, Munich 59000 Yes No

1997–98 Spain Real Madrid 1–0 Juventus Italy Amsterdam Arena, Amsterdam 48500 Yes Yes

1998–99 England Manchester United 2–1 Bayern Munich Germany Camp Nou, Barcelona 90245 No No

1999–2000 Spain Real Madrid 3–0 Valencia Spain Stade de France, Saint-Denis 80000 No No

2000–01 Germany Bayern Munich 1–1*[G] Valencia Spain San Siro, Milan 71500 Yes No

2001–02 Spain Real Madrid 2–1 Bayer Leverkusen Germany Hampden Park, Glasgow 50499 Yes No

2002–03 Italy Milan 0–0*[H] Juventus Italy Old Trafford, Manchester 62315 No Yes

2003–04 Portugal Porto 3–0 Monaco France Arena AufSchalke, Gelsenkirchen 53053 Yes No

2004–05 England Liverpool 3–3* Milan Italy Atatürk Olympic Stadium, Istanbul 69000 No Yes

2005–06 Spain Barcelona 2–1 Arsenal England Stade de France, Saint-Denis 79610 No No

2006–07 Italy Milan 2–1 Liverpool England Olympic Stadium, Athens 63000 No No

2007–08 England Manchester United 1–1*[J] Chelsea England Luzhniki Stadium, Moscow 67310 Yes No

2008–09 Spain Barcelona 2–0 Manchester United England Stadio Olimpico, Rome 62467 Yes Yes

2009–10 Italy Internazionale 2–0 Bayern Munich Germany Santiago Bernabéu Stadium, Madrid 73490 Yes No

2010–11 Spain Barcelona 3–1 Manchester United England Wembley Stadium, London 87695 Yes No

2011–12 England Chelsea 1–1*[K] Bayern Munich Germany Allianz Arena, Munich 62500 No No

2012–13 Germany Bayern Munich 2–1 Borussia Dortmund Germany Wembley Stadium, London 86298 No Yes

2013–14 Spain Real Madrid 4–1 Atlético Madrid Spain Estádio da Luz, Lisbon 60976 No No

2014–15 Spain Barcelona 3–1 Juventus Italy Olympiastadion, Berlin 70442 No Yes

2015–16 Spain Real Madrid 1–1*[L] Atlético Madrid Spain San Siro, Milan 71942 No No

2016–17 Spain Real Madrid 4–1 Juventus Italy Millennium Stadium, Cardiff 65842 No Yes

2017–18 Spain Real Madrid 3–1 Liverpool England NSC Olimpiyskiy Stadium, Kiev 61561 No No

2018–19 England Tottenham Hotspur v Liverpool England Wanda Metropolitano, Madrid No No





Champions 9 7

Not Champions 14 16

 

[dennishasdoneit]

You're dismissing some very good teams there.

Eastern European teams like Dynamo Dresden and Dynamo Berlin were state funded and their best players weren't allowed to leave.

Borussia Mönchengladbach were one of 'Europe's elite' at the time. They also had Allan Simonsen, the European Footballer of the Year in their team when they played Liverpool in '77.

Hamburg had Keegan who was the current European Footballer of the Year when they played Forest in '80.

St Etienne had Platini and Rocheteau.

If the European Cup was easier to win, why didn't the bigger teams win it every year like they do most years in the Champions League?

Good point ,well argued.
Hamburg also had manny Kaltz ..one of the best right backs in the world at that time.(John Robertson who was left sided,but right footed....fooledhim ,cut inside,and belted the winner from 20 yards with his right foot)

 

[Deleted member 77198]

Would the European Cup be easier to win now, if it was still in it’s original format?

City.
Barcelona
Ajax.
Bayern Munich.
Juventus.
Celtic.(home advantage)
PSG.
Porto.
Etc.

So you have at least 7 decent teams who could cause City problems over 2 legs if City were drawn against either of them in a straight knockout competition.

Instead City ended up in a group where they were guaranteed a top 2 finish. Then into the last 16, which resulted in us getting the easiest draw. And let’s be honest, we should have beat Spurs over 2 legs. Then Ajax. So City only faced stern opposition when they reached the last 8 of the CL. Only to be knocked out by a team that finished 3rd in the PL last season, and by VAR.

Conclusion.The CL is shite!

What would your reasoning be to have Ajax and Celtic involved?

The Dutch league has slipped to 11th in the UEFA rankings in recent years. The Scottish league is 20th.

 

[jrb]

What would your reasoning be to have Ajax and Celtic involved?

The Dutch league has slipped to 11th in the UEFA rankings in recent years. The Scottish league is 20th.

The fact that Ajax got as far as the semi-Final this year, won the league, have won it on a regular basis, have huge support in Amsterdam and Holland, have won the European Cup before, and are considered one of the great European clubs.
Celtic. Erm..... On 2nd thoughts. No! Actually, just like Ajax, but not as much going for them.

 

[malg]

Very, very over hyped cup competition.

 

[Stoned Rose]

There are a lot of flaws in how it’s structured.

The group phase is ‘loaded’ to ensure the 2 bigger clubs in each group get through.

The group phase allows for the big boys to ‘make mistakes’, lose games, and still get through.

The ways it’s structured means teams only play ‘some’ of the teams in the competition. Meaning a team might go a long way or even win it, but a team they never faced, may well have been good enough to beat them and knock them out.

The knock out phase is ludicrous as a team could draw each game 0-0 and sneak through on penalties, eventually drawing 0-0 in the final and winning the whole thing on penalties. Therefore, not scoring a single goal from the last 16 onwards.

The ‘away goals’ rule is pathetic and doesn’t apply in any of the major leagues in Europe.

It’s mental really.

I still enjoy it and would love to win it, but there are so many factors that allow a team to win it who aren’t actually the best team in the competition.

 

[mccity]

It's a hugely prestigious tournament until we win it and then it's not.

It's been overrated in it's value due to Real Madrid's recent success, and a need to make it look impressive compared to not winning anything else.