Why are we so bad in Europe?

[Dodge MCFC]

Bobby Manc,s tactics , 2 ridiculously difficult groups we have been drawn in and massive in my opinion where is the "tempo" in our game at Champions League level . Granted you have to be patient at this level but first half against Ajax last night Ajax were there for the taking when we went one up . UEFA cup on thursdays then prem on a sunday ..... yuk !

 

[Marvin]

I was thinking today that I genuinely like every member of the squad and they all seem like very nice chaps.

In short,I think we need to sign a couple of right gnarly *****.


We've had a few performances,particularly in Europe,where we've looked completely flat,bordering on disinterested,we need a couple of players that will encourage a bit of controlled agression in the others.
Something like Bellamy and dare I say it Roy Keane brought to the table.

Obviously there's more going wrong than just that but I think a bit of bite would be a start.

Was thinking exactly the same myself - Luis Suarez?

 

[Deleted member 14625]

We dont do well at CL level because of one very simple reason-

Several of our best 11 aren't good enough for CL level.

Yes, they are very very good at prem level, but this is the CL. We are drawn against 3 Champions from other 'football countries'. They are clearly going to be bloody good sides.

As much as I love them all, Lescott, Barry, Milner, Nasri and Dzeko (all starters last night), simply aren't sufficient at this level (in their overall contributions), despite being more than capable of winning premierships.

We were completely outplayed in midfield last night and we had very little if any creativity or pace about our approach. We were slow and 'obvious'. Even our best player Yaya looks fairly 'ordinary' in CL games.

You lads can bring up this, that and the other as excuses or reasons but imo they mean nothing. We just aren't good enough at this level.

Let me illustrate this - lets say we had bought Hazard, Dembele, Corzola (who were available) in the summer would Milner & barry have played as part of our 'best 11' in a CL game?

Would they fuck. And there is the problem.

Our 'best 11' is no better than it was last year. This year we have a harder group. Do the math.

Apart from it being "Cazorla" (he's not Italian) and "maths" (we're not American) ;) (only pulling yer leg)....that's a spot on assessment.

A fair amount of our squad were bought when we progressed from a tenth placed side to a fifth placed side and to be honest are still only at that level. Some were bought when we went to challenge for that title and are very good Premier League players. Since winning it we didn't sign anyone to take us to the next level...so, as you say, with a much tougher CL group, why is anyone expecting us to get any further? It simply wont happen.

-- Thu Oct 25, 2012 7:26 pm --

I was thinking today that I genuinely like every member of the squad and they all seem like very nice chaps.

In short,I think we need to sign a couple of right gnarly *****.


We've had a few performances,particularly in Europe,where we've looked completely flat,bordering on disinterested,we need a couple of players that will encourage a bit of controlled agression in the others.
Something like Bellamy and dare I say it Roy Keane brought to the table.

Obviously there's more going wrong than just that but I think a bit of bite would be a start.

Souness at Liverpool, Keane at United, Gatusso at Milan (seven European Cup medals there?) ... these sort of players do help.

 

[teddykgb]

I think most people are right to point at tempo, but I think it's a little more than tempo. I think it's also a lack of width, but more than just that as well.

We are undoubtedly a bit of a slow team. Our best XI doesn't really contain anyone except Yaya that has real burst. And Yaya only turns that on a few times a game, he's not a pacy player in general. Aguero/Tevez aren't slow but aren't burners either, Nasri and Silva are deliberate. Milner may not be in the best XI but has some pace (and has looked OK in Europe to my eyes). You can probably make a credible argument that Micah is one of our paciest players in terms of the speed he plays the game at. As a result, we've often chased the game in Europe, unable to break up play to create possession.

But when we have the ball, we've struggled to maintain possession, and that doesn't necessarily require pace. But we play such a narrow system without true wingers taking the ball down the touchline, teams seem to find it easy to press the man and take away the pass at the same time. Our narrow approach seems to lend itself to crowding out the midfield and letting the extra bodies close the triangles down and reduce us to more of a hoof and run style that definitely doesn't suit our squad.

But something that has been bugging me lately is that our midfielders in particular are awfully one dimensional. Silva and Nasri are very advanced midfielders who are basically offensive players. Barry and Garcia are considered purely defensive. Milner and Yaya maybe have a bit more range, but when we setup they're given rather defined roles of offense or defense. When you consider that we try to play all of them as midfielders, we tend to put Yaya and a defensive minded midfielder in the middle of the pitch, then put silva and nasri out wide, where they mostly just attack and roam. The inverted winger stuff is great in attack and great when you have the ball, but I think it leaves them very far out of position to defend wide and I feel like teams have been able to very successfully use our lack of width against us. They can pass through our midfield because they can always ping the ball wide and take the space rather easily, either through a midfielder or a fullback racing up the wing. Which makes sense if you figure that Nasri and Silva are stranding themselves forward with the strikers and Yaya (when advanced) sometimes does the same....we end up with a lone midfielder trying to close down the ball (and failing) and then our fullback has to leave the shell to defend wide, stretching the defense and opening up lots of possibilities....

I guess this is a really elaborate way of saying that we need our midfielders to track back better, but I do think it's not simply a matter of effort, as much as it is that their positional directive leaves them out of position to maintain the shape in the case of a change of possession. The freedom to roam is also the freedom to leave yourself out of position. I wonder how much the injury to Garcia has hurt, i could imagine us setting out 4-2-3-1 with Garcia and Barry holding, then maybe playing Milner as one of the midfield 3 with Yaya and Silva -- which would have much more balance to it if we had only one striker. I agree with others that Mancini has sort of backed himself into a corner with the attacking options on display, as he really needs to start 2 to even rotate them enough to keep them all happy, but I think it's causing us to be pretty incomplete through the midfield resulting in all kinds of problems in possession and getting back to defend.

 

[Deleted member 14625]

2 ridiculously difficult groups we have been drawn in

To be honest, apart from Bayern München who are better than us; Napoli finished 5th in Serie A 23 points off the top, and Villarreal were relegated from La Liga. Last year's group wasn't "ridiculously difficult", it was just our first very naive season in the competition.

This season there is absolutely no comparison - this is a difficult group. We're still naive and haven't really improved in any way from last season apart from having one experience of the competition.

 

[kevodevo]

Formation, tactics, management.

And intensity. Dortmund pressed us all over the pitch and we couldn't handle it. They don't do that every week. We just play our normal game, and that's not good enough when the opposition are giving everything

This so true
We turned up thinking we had 3 points in the bag - they turned up with desire - guess who won!
we need that desire - get the ball back as soon as- and work harder when we have it
Dortmund wanted it and we have to learn that if we want to progress in Europe- Mancini can do the business but the team have to turn up every time

 

[Hamann Pineapple]

We just don't travel well. I put it down to Micah and Mario having haircuts like B.A.Baracus. I've even heard Clichy shouting "I ain't gettin' on no plane" just lately.

 

[john blue]

Was like watching come dancing, hart to company, company to lescott, lescott back to company, company to hart , hart to lescott, utter shite, no tempo, no pace no width, they got more and more confident because we let them boss the game, a game WE HAD TO WIN. Shite game plan mr mancini carling cup gone, europe gone, 2 to go. hope its part of a plan

 

[lafitz2008]

I was thinking today that I genuinely like every member of the squad and they all seem like very nice chaps.

In short,I think we need to sign a couple of right gnarly *****.


We've had a few performances,particularly in Europe,where we've looked completely flat,bordering on disinterested,we need a couple of players that will encourage a bit of controlled agression in the others.
Something like Bellamy and dare I say it Roy Keane brought to the table.

Obviously there's more going wrong than just that but I think a bit of bite would be a start.

Was thinking exactly the same myself - Luis Suarez?

Ha,na he's just a ****,a gnarly **** is what's needed.
Gatusso/Souness as someones said is the exactly the sort of **** we're looking for.

 

[jollylescott]

We dont do well at CL level because of one very simple reason-

Several of our best 11 aren't good enough for CL level.

Yes, they are very very good at prem level, but this is the CL. We are drawn against 3 Champions from other 'football countries'. They are clearly going to be bloody good sides.

As much as I love them all, Lescott, Barry, Milner, Nasri and Dzeko (all starters last night), simply aren't sufficient at this level (in their overall contributions), despite being more than capable of winning premierships.

We were completely outplayed in midfield last night and we had very little if any creativity or pace about our approach. We were slow and 'obvious'. Even our best player Yaya looks fairly 'ordinary' in CL games.

You lads can bring up this, that and the other as excuses or reasons but imo they mean nothing. We just aren't good enough at this level.

Let me illustrate this - lets say we had bought Hazard, Dembele, Corzola (who were available) in the summer would Milner & barry have played as part of our 'best 11' in a CL game?

Would they fuck. And there is the problem.

Our 'best 11' is no better than it was last year. This year we have a harder group. Do the math.

Totally agree. Our first 11 has not been improved and this also jeopardises our Title defence. Our midfield is desperately thin and this is exposed at the highest level. I am not hopping on the Blame Bobby bandwagon. He was simply not provided with the players to allow us to compete at the CL level. He expressed his frustration at numerous press conference during the transfer window. I don't care who the Manager would have been, with our first 11 they are simply not good enough.

As a comparison all the leading contenders in the title race improved their first 11. The rags with RVP, Chelsea with Hazard and others, Arsenal with Cazorla, even Spurs with Vertonghen. It remains a mystery to me as to why we stood still and allowed the others to catch up. And of course in the CL we have fallen behind.