Why do we bother?

Mr Grumpy said:
1) Because Justice and law regardless of the crime are the bedrock of a proper, civilised society.
2) Because we don't have capital punishment.
3) Because he is a better deterrent alive than dead.
4) Because killing him in the name of the law would make him a martyr.

The correct question to ask is how the fuck this happens in a modern, high security prison?

I have more respect and sympathy for prison guards than most civil servants tbh. It's probably more dangerous than any other service job but without the recognition.

I hope they have a swift recovery.
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I gave up after point 1 it literally has no meaning, bedrock of a proper civilised society.

Kinell.
 
Millwallawayveteran1988 said:
www.bbc.co.uk

Manchester Arena families in 'disbelief' Hashem Abedi was able to attack prison officers

Families of five of Hashem Abedi's victims tell the government he should not be allowed any privileges in prison, in a letter seen by the BBC.
www.bbc.co.uk www.bbc.co.uk

Totally agree.
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Some believe the family of the dead children are just too darn emotional. You can't take an air fryer off a jihadist ffs! civilised societies cannot be that barbaric, what next the microwave? The toaster?

Everyone deserves a 3rd chance, at least until they need tte 4th chance:-)
 
Good luck to the 3 he attacked. Two will probably have to take early retirement due to their physical and mental injuries and the other will probably be redeployed to admin duties after a long period of sick leave. So there's 3 new front line Officers that will have to be recruited and trained.
 
hilts said:
Some believe the family of the dead children are just too darn emotional. You can't take an air fryer off a jihadist ffs! civilised societies cannot be that barbaric, what next the microwave? The toaster?

Everyone deserves a 3rd chance, at least until they need tte 4th chance:-)
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Indeed.
 
flook said:
I'm not convinced by that argument. Is it decent and humane to keep any human locked up for 50+ years without the chance of freedom?

I have no sympathy for this fuckers situation, nor any like him, but to argue this is the humane solution is disingenuous
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How to demolish an argument in one paragraph.
 
the-ecstacy-of-eight said:
Last Thursday I walked down Deansgate.
There was a woman (possibly Romanian by the language she was using) completely losing her shit.
I could hear her screaming from Great Northern Square and as I walked up she didn't stop.
I eventually got to just outside that Moon under the Water bar thing that's pretty much at the end of Market Street.
She was screaming and crying and must've been doing it for at least 5 mins by then.
You know what EVERYBODY was doing?

EVERYBODY!

Videoing it on their fucking phones.

Laughing.

Pointing.

It was fucking packed.

Not a single person offered anything in the five minutes I took to walk past staring at them all, thinking, "brilliant, 5'6" me has got to be the single, solitary person "brave" enough to get involved and somehow console this poor tragic person, yet-a-fucking-gain."

I can tell you hundreds and hundreds of these stories mate.

Do you want to hear the one about the very feeble old man who needed help to get down 5 steps at a train station but EVERYONE just walked past him? In a rush weren't they, beers to drink on a Saturday, way more important than helping an old man who'd probably not even spoken to a single human all day. Priorities and that.

etc...
etc...
etc.

The vast majority of people, IMO, are generally twats who don't have even an ounce of decency or what I would describe as humanity in them. You meet one or two with a working moral compass, but not very often.

So yeah, I stand by my point.

Not angry, just disappointed :)
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Did you do owt to help? I don’t mean that cuntishly btw.
 
If we could effectively tickle and massage ECHR's article 8, then this might work.
tSqh8rQ.gif


There can always be an exception to the rule to maintain safety and the harmony of prison life, with serial killer Robert Maudsley springing to mind. He's now been incarcerated in an underground glass cell at wakefield for a very long time, only being let out for an hour a day, chained and accompanied by four officers.

No cookery classes or stimulai for him, just hard pennance for the killing of four nonces, so why doesn't abedi receive the same treatment for the butchery of 22 innocents. Do one Strazburg!
 
Two Gun Bob said:
If we could effectively tickle and massage ECHR's article 8, then this might work.
tSqh8rQ.gif


There can always be an exception to the rule to maintain safety and the harmony of prison life, with serial killer Robert Maudsley springing to mind. He's now been incarcerated in an underground glass cell at wakefield for a very long time, only being let out for an hour a day, chained and accompanied by four officers.

No cookery classes or stimulai for him, just hard pennance for the killing of four nonces, so why doesn't abedi receive the same treatment for the butchery of 22 innocents. Do one Strazburg!
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Agree. That’s the type of regime I’d be totally in favour of. Not just for terrorists either. Huntley/Couzens/Cashman etc….stuck in a cell all day, no contact with other prisoners, fed through a hatch and exercise as per above. Fuck em. If they go mad tough shit.
 
hilts said:
I gave up after point 1 it literally has no meaning, bedrock of a proper civilised society.

Kinell.
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It has ALL the meaning.

We are natures monsters. What makes us so special is our ability to not be monstrous 100% of the time. This proves that we have self determination and thus we can exist above the rule of nature.

By not showing restraint, by pandering to our base instincts and by being no better than the law of nature, we demean ourselves.

Perhaps another way to put it would be that your solution is a 1st testament response whereas we've evolved to higher, second testament plane.

Are you so without sin that you would consider yourself pure enough to take someone's life in judgement?

No, likely not and so says anyone else who's against the death penalty. Life is sacred regardless . It is not our place to take it freely.


^Sounds a bit religious I know and I'm not religious at all but the Bible, once you wrestle it back from the grip of organized religion has some real high logic lore and wisdom in it.

Tl;Dr? -> Not killing him puts us on a higher moral and logical plane.
 
Mr Grumpy said:
It has ALL the meaning.

We are natures monsters. What makes us so special is our ability to not be monstrous 100% of the time. This proves that we have self determination and thus we can exist above the rule of nature.

By not showing restraint, by pandering to our base instincts and by being no better than the law of nature, we demean ourselves.

Perhaps another way to put it would be that your solution is a 1st testament response whereas we've evolved to higher, second testament plane.

Are you so without sin that you would consider yourself pure enough to take someone's life in judgement?

No, likely not and so says anyone else who's against the death penalty. Life is sacred regardless . It is not our place to take it freely.


^Sounds a bit religious I know and I'm not religious at all but the Bible, once you wrestle it back from the grip of organized religion has some real high logic lore and wisdom in it.

Tl;Dr? -> Not killing him puts us on a higher moral and logical plane.
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faux-intellectual bullshit sorry

You're not religious but you'll lean on the bible when it suits your argument, but only chapter 2 cos chapter 1 says something different.

You can moralise all you like but this **** and his equally cunty brother targeted children in an attack designed to cause maximum emotional distress to an indiscriminately selected group of people all in the name of a fairy tale. I don't even recognise those two as the same species as me. There is no problem putting down a mad dog so why the fucking crying over monsters like this?
 
flook said:
faux-intellectual bullshit sorry

You're not religious but you'll lean on the bible when it suits your argument, but only chapter 2 cos chapter 1 says something different.

You can moralise all you like but this **** and his equally cunty brother targeted children in an attack designed to cause maximum emotional distress to an indiscriminately selected group of people all in the name of a fairy tale. I don't even recognise those two as the same species as me. There is no problem putting down a mad dog so why the fucking crying over monsters like this?
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No, it's not bullshit.
It's not moralising either.

Perhaps a bit above your kin but the basics behind it are sound.

You'll be saying I'm championing murderers next no doubt.
 
Mr Grumpy said:
No, it's not bullshit.
It's not moralising either.

Perhaps a bit above your kin but the basics behind it are sound.

You'll be saying I'm championing murderers next no doubt.
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My kin? what have my family got to do with it?

and don't put words in my mouth.

As you said earlier "Because Justice and law regardless of the crime are the bedrock of a proper, civilised society." does this mean

1) Pre abolition of the death penalty in the UK in 1998, the UK wasn't a proper civilised society (even though the death penalty up to that point was a legally recognised form of justice)

or

2) If the death penalty was re-introduced by law you would then support it (as it would then be a recognised form of justice)
 
Millwallawayveteran1988 said:
Agree. That’s the type of regime I’d be totally in favour of. Not just for terrorists either. Huntley/Couzens/Cashman etc….stuck in a cell all day, no contact with other prisoners, fed through a hatch and exercise as per above. Fuck em. If they go mad tough shit.
Click to expand...

Maudsley would be the perfect cellmate for the terrorist
 
flook said:
My kin? what have my family got to do with it?

and don't put words in my mouth.

As you said earlier "Because Justice and law regardless of the crime are the bedrock of a proper, civilised society." does this mean

1) Pre abolition of the death penalty in the UK in 1998, the UK wasn't a proper civilised society (even though the death penalty up to that point was a legally recognised form of justice)

or

2) If the death penalty was re-introduced by law you would then support it (as it would then be a recognised form of justice)
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Ken, typo. My bad.

1) States do stupid things all the time and time marches on and we as a society and civilisation develop and evolve, hopefully to a higher level. Official death penalty end might have been 1998 but mid 60's was it's true end and yes, we've evolved rapidly in the 60 years since then.

2) Silly.
 
Mr Grumpy said:
It has ALL the meaning.

We are natures monsters. What makes us so special is our ability to not be monstrous 100% of the time. This proves that we have self determination and thus we can exist above the rule of nature.

By not showing restraint, by pandering to our base instincts and by being no better than the law of nature, we demean ourselves.

Perhaps another way to put it would be that your solution is a 1st testament response whereas we've evolved to higher, second testament plane.

Are you so without sin that you would consider yourself pure enough to take someone's life in judgement?

No, likely not and so says anyone else who's against the death penalty. Life is sacred regardless . It is not our place to take it freely.


^Sounds a bit religious I know and I'm not religious at all but the Bible, once you wrestle it back from the grip of organized religion has some real high logic lore and wisdom in it.

Tl;Dr? -> Not killing him puts us on a higher moral and logical plane.
Click to expand...
Imho that's bollocks and we could debate if for a while but we will not make any progress. We ain't special and the fact we think we are either as a group or individually is one of our biggest failings.

You shouldn't believe your moral plane is any better or more logical than someone else. Its shows an arrogance that is another human falling
 
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