Would the country be better off...

[nijinsky's fetlocks]

First of all it is wrong and hopelessly naive to have any aspiration of an equal human society. Certain skills and abilities will always be more valued than others.

Anyone who seriously expects, for example, that the best musicians, actors and sports professionals in a future socialist world wouldn't have access to the best restaurants, holidays and fast cars has a serious deficit in understanding what it is to be human. If you have a talent that others value it is a very empowering gift.

It was the same in the Soviet Union. Instead of the entrepreneurial talent and creative energy that are valued in capitalistic societies, instead effective planning skills and an ablity to engage in double-think ruled the day and those that had those gifts prospered, both in terms of power and, to a much lesser extent, financially.

That power, concentrated by virtue of an engorged state, into the hands of a relatively small number of bureaucrats and apparatchiks was appallingly abused, in no small part by the fear of those who had power and were terrified of losing it. It also led to inertia on an industrial scale. Matters being decided (or rather not) by committee meant a great deal of well intended projects never meaningfully got off the ground.

I view it as a rather dull, dour system of government when creative élan is almost frowned upon at the expense of towing the party line. Iconoclasts that form socialist states eventually become its antithesis as its systems and MO get increasingly calcified.

I believe if you ever saw socialism adopted worldwide the planet wouldn't grind to a shuddering halt but it the incredible advances mankind has witnessesed in the last two centuries, since the rise of capitalism, would significantly diminish in speed and frequency.

I am certain that unfettered capitalism isn't the answer, but I think a socialist world would be much duller and slower than people realise.

Oh dear - I really was expecting something more than specious comparisons, vague non sequiturs and the overwhelming odour of strawman from such an intelligent and eloquent poster as yourself.
I'll put it down to a bad day at the office, and suggest that you have a polite word with quality control when you get a minute.

 

[Skashion]

Oh dear - I really was expecting something more than specious comparisons, vague non sequiturs and the overwhelming odour of strawman from such an intelligent and eloquent poster as yourself.
I'll put it down to a bad day at the office, and suggest that you have a polite word with quality control when you get a minute.

The other day he suggested aliens would be held back by their lack of fossil fuels. Sometimes intelligent and eloquent posters say really daft shit.

 

[nijinsky's fetlocks]

Oh dear - I really was expecting something more than specious comparisons, vague non sequiturs and the overwhelming odour of strawman from such an intelligent and eloquent poster as yourself.
I'll put it down to a bad day at the office, and suggest that you have a polite word with quality control when you get a minute.

The other day he suggested aliens would be held back by their lack of fossil fuels. Sometimes intelligent and eloquent posters say really daft shit.

I'm merely surprised that none of our more rabid right wing forumites picked up the baton and started a thread expressing concern that unemployed single parent alien asylum seekers would place an intolerable burden upon our welfare state, and threaten British culture and traditions.
Whatever the fuck they are.
Probably Morris dancing, wrecking bus shelters, and going to fucking garden centres at the weekend.

 

[pominoz]

Very true. Anybody with empathy in their make up must have a hankering for an equitable society, so socialism fits the bill. It always seems like Christmas every day for a few years whenever we get a labour government, unfortunately the cash runs out and the presents end up being pawned.

Bullshit, there is enough money out there to make everyone's life good.
You just do not want your share of the cake to be cut.

If you think there is 'Enough money to make everyone's life good' I'm afraid the bullshit tag needs redirecting.

Take a look at this, the mighty capitalist heaven of the USA.
Do you really prefer this model to a much fairer one?

[youtube]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7MMfdpn6FUM[/youtube]

 

[another generation]

If socialism is good, until the money runs out, why not adopt pure socialism and abandon money?

 

[dazdon]

The country would be better off without this left right middle shite.

Party politics stink and it should be abandoned.

Or banned.

 

[BoyBlue_1985]

If socialism is good, until the money runs out, why not adopt pure socialism and abandon money?

There isn't enough fuel or food in the country to support the population. Granted a hell of alot of people would leave but im not sure Russia takes sheep in exchange for 2 trillion cubic ft of gas a year

 

[gordondaviesmoustache]

Oh dear - I really was expecting something more than specious comparisons, vague non sequiturs and the overwhelming odour of strawman from such an intelligent and eloquent poster as yourself.
I'll put it down to a bad day at the office, and suggest that you have a polite word with quality control when you get a minute.

If you'd like to give specifics, rather than broad-brush comments, I am happy to respond.

Oh, and I'm pretty certain "vague non sequiturs" is tautological :-)

The other day he suggested aliens would be held back by their lack of fossil fuels. Sometimes intelligent and eloquent posters say really daft shit.

I am surprised you didn't pull me up on this at the time rather than sneering at it a week later.

I said could and it was a perfectly valid thing to suggest. The absence of such materials could very well hamper the ability of other, intelligent species from ever developing the technology to escape from their worlds. Mankind would still be sailing round on wooden ships powered by sails without it and would doubtless be subsequently wiped out by a planet-wide event that they were unable to cope with at some point in the future.

Mechanisation, and all that flows from it, required fossil fuels. Its abundance and ready availability could very well be something that marks our planet as unusual. If so, what I posted could very well be the case.

 

[Ifwecouldjust.......]

You are much brighter than to fall into the false accusation that Socialism means equality for all.

To me Socialism has always been more about equality of opportunity and if a learned fella like yourself cannot see that distinction then i think we are truly fucked as a society

I can see the distinction. I was setting out my stall but perhaps, upon reflection, the point I was making was a little inelegant, as was my unqualified use of The Soviet Union as a parallel.

I realise there are points of difference between socialism and communism but they are systems that re based on similar principles and therefore have similar symptoms. As a socialist you aspire to have a much, much larger state and that will still lead to the problems to which I referred.

In any event I wonder whether equality for all, or even anything approaching it is ever achievable. Human beings with power and influence will always try and succeed in pulling strings to help their own.

You only have to look at the last three leaders of North Korea to realise that.

Again a lazy comparison to a dictatorship in North Korea.

Marx himself thought Socialism was as a big an enemy to Communism as capitalism so confusing the two is futile.

I understand as a Liberal you want minimum interefernce in your life and that is fine by me but i can also see that big government does not neccesarily intrude on your life. Socialism enables the poor to aspire, yet does not doom the succesful to fail. I as a Socialist have no problem with wealth, i just want them to make sure the gap between them and the poorest of there brethern does not widen but decreases as that has to be good for society as a whole.


I would not want a Socialist government to dominate society, i would want it to enable society to do good. I would not want to curb entrenuership nor tax overtly, i would want to tax fairly.

A socialists true aim in my opinion is to narrow the gap between the rich and poor and over the last Labour Govt. that gap was exacerbated. Sadly so very fucking sadly.

I as a Socialist have no problem with wealth

I do....but only if that wealth is gained to the detriment of the less well off.........by overcharging, by ripping off, by Governements allowing the rich to evade taxation whilst screwing 'average joe' for every penny, by allowing others to avoid paying the going rate simply because of position, status or the fact they were born into a certain 'class'

As I said earlier I have no problem with people who have earned their crust and a lot of governments who implement socialist policies also encourage entrepreneurship.

 

[I'm With Stupid]

First of all it is wrong and hopelessly naive to have any aspiration of an equal human society. Certain skills and abilities will always be more valued than others.

Equality should be in opportunity, not in outcome. That's slightly easier to achieve, and while it's never going to be possible to get to a stage where your success is based in part on your parents' social status, it's certainly possible to get to a point where that isn't the primary determining factor, like it is in many countries in the world (including the UK). Ironically, many countries that call themselves socialist are ten times worse than any Western countries when it comes to this. Vietnam, where I'm currently living, is almost entirely run on nepotism, to the point where you can actually buy lucrative government jobs if you have enough money and the right contacts (at which point you need to use your position to steal from the system to make it worth the money you paid). That's not unique to socialist countries, of course, it's more of a poor country thing.