Wrongful Dismissal and ACAS

Just to put the cat amongst the pigeons, Philip Landau from Landau Law is a 30 year solicitor in employment law and writes for the Guardian. On his company website it states …

“

Can I give more notice than what is required in my contract of employment?​

Yes, this is possible and your employer should not make you leave earlier than this.
“

Which appears to corroborate the CAB website. Some other sources (MSE forums) have suggested that if the contract says “minimum x weeks” then that also leaves the option open to offer more. You’d think contracts would be best to stipulate a fixed period or a range.

Proof to me that law is a minefield and in the end a lot comes down to practicality and common sense.
 
Coatigan said:
So I can give my employer a notice of 10 years now, and he's then not allowed to let me go in that period, and has to pay me the for the rest of it even if I decide to do fuck all to the point the only option he has is to put me on paid gardening leave for the remaining 9 years and 11 months? Aye ok mate.
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No, first of all, that’s such an extreme hypothetical scenario that I doubt anyone has ever set a 10 year notice period.

But I’ll answer your ridiculous hypothetical question, you are still employed until the day you leave whilst working your notice period. If the employer wants to get rid of you before the date you set then it has to be within good reason otherwise it could be classed (and probably will be) as unfair dismissal. Exactly the same as if you hadn’t put your notice in.

They have to option to put you on gardening leave depending what’s in your contract but again it has to be within good reason otherwise it could be classed as a breach of contract for stopping you working when you are available.

If like you have said, an employee downs tools during his notice period, then as they are still an employee they are treated as such and will be subject to any disciplinary procedures the employer has and can be dismissed during their notice period again if witching good reason.

Not sure why you’re coming across as some kind of expert and being condescending when you are just wrong. Go and speak to any employment law firm out there and they will tell you the same.
 
WNRH said:
No, first of all, that’s such an extreme hypothetical scenario that I doubt anyone has ever set a 10 year notice period.

But I’ll answer your ridiculous hypothetical question, you are still employed until the day you leave whilst working your notice period. If the employer wants to get rid of you before the date you set then it has to be within good reason otherwise it could be classed (and probably will be) as unfair dismissal. Exactly the same as if you hadn’t put your notice in.

They have to option to put you on gardening leave depending what’s in your contract but again it has to be within good reason otherwise it could be classed as a breach of contract for stopping you working when you are available.

If like you have said, an employee downs tools during his notice period, then as they are still an employee they are treated as such and will be subject to any disciplinary procedures the employer has and can be dismissed during their notice period again if witching good reason.

Not sure why you’re coming across as some kind of expert and being condescending when you are just wrong. Go and speak to any employment law firm out there and they will tell you the same.
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You are completely missing the point. All that is true. Within the notice period. Which is defined by the contract, or what is subsequently mutually agreed, and not by what the employee wants it to be or thinks they can unilaterally impose.

I am not alone in claiming this btw, and I am being no more condescending than most others here, including the cliché wielding mob.

I don't particularly care either btw, I've said and been clear on it from what I have experienced and seen. The onus isn't on me to argue or prove anything. Snipped extracts of out of context claims online are not going to settle this. Lets see how the OP gets on, but he doesn't have a leg to stand on and that will most likely be the outcome of this. Who fucked who over or who was selfish or selfless, that's between them to disagree on, but in terms of employment process, they are right and he is wrong, unfortunately.
 
Didsbury Dave said:
I have no idea what it says or doesn't say on any website but what I do know, not 99% but 100%, is that an emplyee cannot decide their own notice period when they leave somewhere. That would be patently ridiculous. There are many jobs where you will clearly be required to work garden leave as you leaving for a competitor, so no company is going to allow you to extend that garden period to suit you. And it often doesn't suit companies to have someone who's mind is elsewhere on the premises demotivating everyone else.

You can agree a leaving date with the company when you hand your notice in if that suits both parties but that is all you can do. Youc ertainly can't do this unilaterally.
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Why would anyone extend gardening leave? The employee has set a date to leave. Once that date has been reached neither the employee or employer can extend it.
 
WNRH said:
Why would anyone extend gardening leave? The employee has set a date to leave. Once that date has been reached neither the employee or employer can extend it.
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If you read the OP, that date had not been reached though. He offered it, they didn't accept it. Case closed. He has no right to dictate it. Just as they wouldn’t have any right to singularly impose it (beyond what is in the contract) either. It really is that simple.
 
WNRH said:
No, first of all, that’s such an extreme hypothetical scenario that I doubt anyone has ever set a 10 year notice period.

But I’ll answer your ridiculous hypothetical question, you are still employed until the day you leave whilst working your notice period. If the employer wants to get rid of you before the date you set then it has to be within good reason otherwise it could be classed (and probably will be) as unfair dismissal. Exactly the same as if you hadn’t put your notice in.

They have to option to put you on gardening leave depending what’s in your contract but again it has to be within good reason otherwise it could be classed as a breach of contract for stopping you working when you are available.

If like you have said, an employee downs tools during his notice period, then as they are still an employee they are treated as such and will be subject to any disciplinary procedures the employer has and can be dismissed during their notice period again if witching good reason.

Not sure why you’re coming across as some kind of expert and being condescending when you are just wrong. Go and speak to any employment law firm out there and they will tell you the same.
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The issue is that the advice online is unclear when you would expect it to be easy to define. From what I have researched I would say “it depends on the wording of the contract”. If the contract specifies “minimum period” then that allows some flexibility on behalf of the employee by inference. It could even be argued that the employer would prefer or is encouraging longer. I would expect an employer only to disagree with the employee if the difference between what is offered and the minimum is extreme or demonstrably unworkable. 3 months vs 1 month could fall into that category as it is 3 times the minimum duration. An employer shouldn’t want to go down the ACAS or legal route unless it was absolutely necessary so probably why this issue doesn’t arise very often.

For me the only way to absolutely specify the notice period is to use unambiguous wording in the contract, such as “only exactly 1 month” or “non-negotiable”. I don’t recall ever seeing that in my employment contracts.
 
Coatigan said:
If you read the OP, that date had not been reached though. He offered it, they didn't accept it. Case closed. He has no right to dictate it. Just as they wouldn’t have any right to singularly impose it (beyond what is in the contract) either. It really is that simple.
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It's not case closed at all. @middlewichblue i suggest you go and get proper advice from a local employement law firm or ACAS and not by the experts on bluemoon.
 
Citizen of Legoland said:
The issue is that the advice online is unclear when you would expect it to be easy to define. From what I have researched I would say “it depends on the wording of the contract”. If the contract specifies “minimum period” then that allows some flexibility on behalf of the employee by inference. It could even be argued that the employer would prefer or is encouraging longer. I would expect an employer only to disagree with the employee if the difference between what is offered and the minimum is extreme or demonstrably unworkable. 3 months vs 1 month could fall into that category as it is 3 times the minimum duration. An employer shouldn’t want to go down the ACAS or legal route unless it was absolutely necessary so probably why this issue doesn’t arise very often.

For me the only way to absolutely specify the notice period is to use unambiguous wording in the contract, such as “only exactly 1 month” or “non-negotiable”. I don’t recall ever seeing that in my employment contracts.
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You are correct, it is all dependent on what is in the contract as a starting point but employment contracts are usually templates and the statutory standards for a large majority of them, especially in small-medium businesses.

The issue here is that the OP is being reasonable and his employer is bitter and is not. There is no need to give longer notice than required in your contract and that should be the lesson, one that i learnt not so long ago. Technically the OP can retract his resignation and hand it in again in 2 months which would give him 1 month notice but i'm not going to sit here and advise that as i'm not an expert in a sector that is every changing when new things crop up after each tribunal case. He needs to contact ACAS.
 
Citizen of Legoland said:
The issue is that the advice online is unclear when you would expect it to be easy to define. From what I have researched I would say “it depends on the wording of the contract”. If the contract specifies “minimum period” then that allows some flexibility on behalf of the employee by inference. It could even be argued that the employer would prefer or is encouraging longer. I would expect an employer only to disagree with the employee if the difference between what is offered and the minimum is extreme or demonstrably unworkable. 3 months vs 1 month could fall into that category as it is 3 times the minimum duration. An employer shouldn’t want to go down the ACAS or legal route unless it was absolutely necessary so probably why this issue doesn’t arise very often.

For me the only way to absolutely specify the notice period is to use unambiguous wording in the contract, such as “only exactly 1 month” or “non-negotiable”. I don’t recall ever seeing that in my employment contracts.
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Was with you all up until that last line. It should always be left negotiable imo, but has to be mutually agreed.

I still don't get why the OP is pushing it or wants it to be 3 months. If it was out of the goodness of his heart, and this has been rejected, then he can just go to the new employer saying he has agreed an earlier exit, and is available to start earier. Surely they would welcome that, rather than waiting another 2 months. Insisitng on being paid 3 months for a job you want to leave and that clearly wants you not to stay beyond the minimum is just odd.
 
WNRH said:
The issue here is that the OP is being reasonable and his employer is bitter and is not.
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How do you know that?


WNRH said:
Technically the OP can retract his resignation and hand it in again in 2 months which would give him 1 month notice
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That would need to be instigated or at the very least accepted by his employers.
 
mosssideblue said:
I'm totally missing something. Your contract which both parties signed states you have to give one months notice, during which time you will be paid. Unless your contract states you will be paid for an extended notice period beyond that contracted, I dont think you have a case.
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This got me thinking. If you are being made redundant then you’d be given more “notice”. Contractually perhaps the notice period is the minimum rather than maximum you need to give. In that case I can understand the legalities of it and how letting someone go “early” is actually a breach of contract on the firms part.
 
Coatigan said:
Was with you all up until that last line. It should always be left negotiable imo, but has to be mutually agreed.

I still don't get why the OP is pushing it or wants it to be 3 months. If it was out of the goodness of his heart, and this has been rejected, then he can just go to the new employer saying he has agreed an earlier exit, and is available to start earier. Surely they would welcome that, rather than waiting another 2 months. Insisitng on being paid 3 months for a job you want to leave and that clearly wants you not to stay beyond the minimum is just odd.
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Sorry if I didn’t make this clearer , I didn’t purposely ask for 3 months in order to down tools or be asked to be put on garden leave and just coast. I have worked for this company for 17years and had a number of contracts in the next few months that I’m sure they will need help with or at the very least need more than a month for a reasonable handover to another member of staff. I gave 3 months purely with the intention of me doing the right thing personally and giving them more notice than required. Some may think I’m daft (you’re right) but that was my intention. Do I think they are bitter because I’m leaving ? Most likely. Are they worried about me taking clients? Probably.
I wasn’t even going to a job in the same sector but as iv stated I am now after being offered one.

A lesson learnt.
 
middlewichblue said:
Sorry if I didn’t make this clearer , I didn’t purposely ask for 3 months in order to down tools or be asked to be put on garden leave and just coast. I have worked for this company for 17years and had a number of contracts in the next few months that I’m sure they will need help with or at the very least need more than a month for a reasonable handover to another member of staff. I gave 3 months purely with the intention of me doing the right thing personally and giving them more notice than required. Some may think I’m daft (you’re right) but that was my intention. Do I think they are bitter because I’m leaving ? Most likely. Are they worried about me taking clients? Probably.
I wasn’t even going to a job in the same sector but as iv stated I am now after being offered one.

A lesson learnt.
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Fair enough pal. I did say, the way it read.

If they didn't welcome it, that's on them but it is their choice. Hopefully you can just start at your new place earlier.
 
middlewichblue said:
Sorry if I didn’t make this clearer , I didn’t purposely ask for 3 months in order to down tools or be asked to be put on garden leave and just coast. I have worked for this company for 17years and had a number of contracts in the next few months that I’m sure they will need help with or at the very least need more than a month for a reasonable handover to another member of staff. I gave 3 months purely with the intention of me doing the right thing personally and giving them more notice than required. Some may think I’m daft (you’re right) but that was my intention. Do I think they are bitter because I’m leaving ? Most likely. Are they worried about me taking clients? Probably.
I wasn’t even going to a job in the same sector but as iv stated I am now after being offered one.

A lesson learnt.
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It’s a big decision to leave after so long and wanting the best for the company you’re leaving is nothing to be ashamed of. Some businesses handle situations like this better than others, I’ve had the bad (accusations of treachery, refusing to pay holidays owed, discrediting both the new employer and myself to the new employer) to the good (gentle persuasion to stay, asking to keep in touch if the new job doesn’t work out).

Good luck in your new job.
 
middlewichblue said:
Thanks for all the replies, to put it into context I’m a senior contracts manager dealing with contracts upto 2million. Iv worked with my employer for almost 17years and decided it was best to give 3 months in order to find a suitable replacement and do any handover required to help out. I thought (wrongly) they would be happy to give that amount of notice and continue or be put on gardening leave if they required it. I was going to be taking a job in a completely different sector as a career change, however after the way iv been treated iv accepted a job offer today that incudes a sizeable salary increase and less hours in the same sector. They will realise their mistake of not putting me on a longer notice period shortly ….
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It’s great having a win.

I got caught up in corporate politics after calling the CEO & HR director out for the way treated & dismissed an employee. Long story short they started 12 months of attacks on myself, accusations of losing millions in assets, taking control of my network to check all my files & emails. I gave 6 months notice which was my contracted notice period & after it continued walked & made a claim. I expected they’d just pay me up but so vindictive they decided to fight it so I saw it through…..

Let’s just say I’ve done very well out of it ;)
 
Coatigan said:
I'm sorry, but that just doesn't add up, the way you are wording it. You expected to be put on gardening leave? For 3 months? Might be far from the truth but the way both your posts read, is more you having an easy paid wind-down, than you looking to do them a favour. And the fact they aren't taking you up on it is probably telling too.

You (royal you) don't decide how long they will pay you once you give your notice. They are obliged to honour the minimum. If it is a month, it is a month. They may ASK you to do longer, and you may be kind enough to agree to that, whether it is to train staff, give time find a replacement, finish off a particular portion of a job or whatever. And it is admirable and to be applauded. But if they don't need that, it isn't your decision.
They are not forcing you out early. They are not doing anything wrong, really.
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I think the people & good intentions has been lost to suspicion. I gave a months notice to an employer after 8 years as my boss & he said I’d let him down. It was all about him & the problem I’d left him with. I think sometimes people take a resignation personally yet I’ve always wished any employees well & honoured it unless it’s a direct rival. (Omar you ****!)
 
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