Explosion at MEN Arena/Victoria Station

[west didsblue]

There is no doubt that our attitude and policies have not helped one bit and to think otherwise is ridiculous.

As you rightly say it doesn't excuse the actions of a madman like on Monday and it never will but if we are ever to stop terrorism like this in the future, we will have to look in the mirror and accept that our policies have to change.

This attitude of yours is exactly what these bastards want to provoke. I assume that your view that our policies have to change means that we should stand back from involvement in any conflicts in other countries. This would mean leaving dictators to murder tens of thousands their own population and groups like IS to murder everyone who doesn't subscribe to their extreme interpretation of Islam apart from young women who they sell to each other as slaves. Do you honestly think that standing back and not getting involved would prevent atrocities such as this weeks bombing. Many of the countries previously attacked have had a lot less involvement in middle eastern conflicts; for example France were not hugely involved until the Charlie Hebdo attacks and Belgium are hardly renowned for getting involved in anything. As I've said earlier the long term answer is to persuade Saudi Arabia not to export their puritanical version of Islam by financing a network of Salafist mosques from which most of the Jihadists get their inspiration, but as long as they're spending billions buying weapons from us and supply us with cheap oil we won't rock the boat too much. The short term answer is what we're doing - using our security and intelligence services to thwart plots that are being planned. Unfortunately on the odd occasion one gets through.

 

[Ancient Citizen]

There is no doubt that our attitude and policies have not helped one bit and to think otherwise is ridiculous.

As you rightly say it doesn't excuse the actions of a madman like on Monday and it never will but if we are ever to stop terrorism like this in the future, we will have to look in the mirror and accept that our policies have to change.

What exactly are the policies and attitudes attributed to us that have not helped regarding Syria?
We are involved, in a relatively minor role, in bombing the vermin known as IS, plus attempting to convince the
murderous dictator controlling that country, to desist in murdering his own civilians.
The simple reason this twat did what he did is because his beloved ideology, the one held by IS, is getting hammered to oblivion,
that is the reason these attacks are happening in the west. There are, regrettably, thousands of muslims resident in this country
who support and revere this organisation, they hate the UK, US, and all western values, so saying that we somehow need to
look in mirrors, or adjust foreign policy to pander to people like this is dangerous nonsense that deflects from what is
an internal problem that needs a robust response.

 

[CTID1988]

There is now a sticky at the top of the page for anybody wanting to donate to help the familys of victims and the victims of the bombing. The fund is currently at £1.2 million which is a fantastic amount, the goal is £2,000,000 so please give whatever you can so some good can come out of this horrible few days https://www.justgiving.com/crowdfunding/westandtogethermanchester

 

[Ricster]

What exactly are the policies and attitudes attributed to us that have not helped regarding Syria?
We are involved, in a relatively minor role, in bombing the vermin known as IS, plus attempting to convince the
murderous dictator controlling that country, to desist in murdering his own civilians.
The simple reason this twat did what he did is because his beloved ideology, the one held by IS, is getting hammered to oblivion,
that is the reason these attacks are happening in the west. There are, regrettably, thousands of muslims resident in this country
who support and revere this organisation, they hate the UK, US, and all western values, so saying that we somehow need to
look in mirrors, or adjust foreign policy to pander to people like this is dangerous nonsense that deflects from what is
an internal problem that needs a robust response.

IS comes from the fall of Iraq and Saddam.
We cosied up in bed with the U.S. and went to war on Iraq because of a lie.
To say our government is innocent in what has previously gone it is wide of the mark.

 

[Ancient Citizen]

IS comes from the fall of Iraq and Saddam.
We cosied up in bed with the U.S. and went to war on Iraq because of a lie.
To say our government is innocent in what has previously gone it is wide of the mark.

I agree with your first sentence.
We joined a coalition of around 50 countries, including Honduras, Japan,Macedonia,Moldova, etc; etc;
all these countries were 'Lied' to but went anyway, why have they not been attacked in similar ways?
Leftist thinkers here always veer to the assumption that atrocities like these always involve blame that must be
attached to the country that suffers them; this character apparently was voicing claptrap like 'Bombing muslims,'
conveniently forgetting that the bombing is intended to eradicate people like him.
So, if our government is responsible in encouraging people like this, then so are virtually all worldwide democracies,
if that's what you want to believe.

 

[che_don_john]

IS comes from the fall of Iraq and Saddam.
We cosied up in bed with the U.S. and went to war on Iraq because of a lie.
To say our government is innocent in what has previously gone it is wide of the mark.

Not entirely true; IS is a merger of a number of different cells (some formerly AQ). All the fall of Saddam did was create a vacuum for IS to fill - it didn't create IS.

Islamic Fundamentalist terrorism does not need western foreign policy as an excuse to commit murder, and never has. The Barbary Wars and attacks on US merchant ships (when the US was a new country with barely any kind of foreign policy) testify to that, as does that fact that Islam essentially spread throughout the Middle-East via terrorism and warmongering (Kurds to this day still equate Islam with Arab aggression).

That's not to say that some of our foreign policy decisions haven't stoked the fire, but that fire was burning long before anything our government ever did.

 

[SilverFox2]

I agree with your first sentence.
We joined a coalition of around 50 countries, including Honduras, Japan,Macedonia,Moldova, etc; etc;
all these countries were 'Lied' to but went anyway, why have they not been attacked in similar ways?
Leftist thinkers here always veer to the assumption that atrocities like these always involve blame that must be
attached to the country that suffers them; this character apparently was voicing claptrap like 'Bombing muslims,'
conveniently forgetting that the bombing is intended to eradicate people like him.
So, if our government is responsible in encouraging people like this, then so are virtually all worldwide democracies,
if that's what you want to believe.

Not sure that the average suicide bomber falls into the category of the IS army members, is it possible that they are within our society already waiting for an excuse to simply kill. Our army filters out such unbalanced persons whereas IS gives them reasons to carry out their uncivilised thought processes.

The USA particularly seems to have such persons who simply go on shooting sprees in public places but every country suffers occasionally.

 

[Ancient Citizen]

Not entirely true; IS is a merger of a number of different cells (some formerly AQ). All the fall of Saddam did was create a vacuum for IS to fill - it didn't create IS.

Islamic Fundamentalist terrorism does not need western foreign policy as an excuse to commit murder, and never has. The Barbary Wars and attacks on US merchant ships (when the US was a new country with barely any kind of foreign policy) testify to that, as does that fact that Islam essentially spread throughout the Middle-East via terrorism and warmongering (Kurds to this day still equate Islam with Arab aggression).

That's not to say that some of our foreign policy decisions haven't stoked the fire, but that fire was burning long before anything our government ever did.

Exactly this.

 

[Ancient Citizen]

Not sure that the average suicide bomber falls into the category of the IS army members, is it possible that they are within our society already waiting for an excuse to simply kill. Our army filters out such unbalanced persons whereas IS gives them reasons to carry out their uncivilised thought processes.

The USA particularly seems to have such persons who simply go on shooting sprees in public places but every country suffers occasionally.

IS doesn't have 'Army members,' (Apart from some original Syrian/Iraqi army officers) it is filled with the likes of this murderer, many of whom have travelled from here to join.
I don't think there are cells awaiting instructions from Raqqa, Damocles has eloquently explained that these are unable to
coalesce into anything so sophisticated. The problem we have is the thousands who sympathise with IS, of which this character did.

 

[Prestwich_Blue]

i'm worried that, here in the UK with our supposedly open attitude to speech, if anyone dares to say that the US/UK involvement in the Middle East could be in any way a contributing factor to radicalisation, you get silenced, bullied and called all sorts of things.

I happen to think that US/UK involvement was a contributing factor (contributing, mind) to a lot of this madness. And for the record I do not and never will condone the bombing innocents. Why people have to tell me i'm sympathising scum because i do is a bit upsetting/worrying.

The whole thing has been a cycle of violence starting with the Russian invasion of Afghanistan and the West collaborating with Pakistan in arming the Mujahideen. They attracted the Arab political extremists like Bin Laden, became the Taliban, who then carried out 9/11 and other acts for which we retaliated, etc. Then we sought to destabilise and overthrow people like Saddam Hussein who, as bad as he was, posed little or no existential threat to us. In doing that we took the lid off the tension he'd contained (albeit brutally) and created a violent political vacuum that was filled by Shia/Sunni conflict involving religious militias. We've since done the same in Syria and Libya, not surprisingly producing the same result.

Of course it's possible that Monday's events and the preceding acts might still have happened had we not done that but anyone who can't see that we have, through short-sighted, knee-jerk or just badly thought out actions, created the ideal breeding ground or incubator for what has happened really needs to go to Specsavers.