Article 50/Brexit Negotiations

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Hello mate.
Just back from the game, disappointed with the draw but was hoping you could cheer me up with news of a fantastic no strings attached comprehensive trade deal promised by the EU trade commissioner , but instead you posted a link to the Torygraph which basically says little more than your original post and doesn't answer any of the questions I posed.
And none of this chimes with what Merkel was on about today regarding UK being delusional about Brexit.
Never mind.
By the way have you replied with your definition of hard Brexit yet?
 
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Your red line of us leaving the EU will not be crossed , however the concessions you indicate we could agree to will mean that we will be an associate member of the EU in all but name.
The concessions you mention on payments, ECJ and immigration will represent a betrayal to most leave voters, particularly on immigration ( and you failed to mention the transition phase of probably an additional three years still fully or closely aligned to,the EU which will be another compromise too far for many leavers).
I think you will you find we will have to stump up a lot of money to get a comprehensive trade deal particularly if we wish to cut our own trade deals, which EU members are not allowed to do.
Compliance with lots of ECJ legislation on whole swathes of trade, commerce and economics will be necessary for a full trade deal - considerably more than the "compliance/equivalence" you refer to.
And finally on immigration we will as a minimum have to give preferential access to EU workers.We know immigration will not reduce despite having "control".
Your reference to your "acceptance" of the nightmare scenario of crashing out with the resultant economic meltdown (as opposed to remaining fully integrated) followed by a twenty years "rebuild" would be acceptable to nobody but yourself and perhaps Metal Biker ( although I think even he was only prepared for 17 years).
Despite all this the final deal you outlined is along lines I proposed in an earlier post, although I think the UK will have to concede more than you think.Nevertheless it is in principle a deal which IMHO would be acceptable to many remainers and definitely puts you in the soft Brexit camp.
However many leavers, the RWNJ press, the right wing Tory party loons and various anti EU groups like Leave means Leave will see this kind of deal as basically UK "associate member of the EU". You and I are ok with that, will they be and will the reMAYner be able to see them off?
With her new majority the hope is that she will.

Len, with regard your comment:

"and you failed to mention the transition phase of probably an additional three years still fully or closely aligned to the EU which will be another compromise too far for many leavers"

I feel that this was covered implicitly by my view that I could see us paying contributions for up to 7 years - so long as we actually leave in a manner that reflects full separation.

I appreciate that there will almost certainly be a transition phase - in fact I would go as far as to say that I hope there is one so long as we really leave.

There is much to analyse and plan to unpick/replace with regard all the regulations and processes. If there is no transition phase I would assume that would mean that we have 'crashed out'. Whilst leaving by crashing out is OK by me as it means we have left, it is my fallback option rather than my preferred one. A jointly managed transition would reflect leaving on jointly agreed terms. That is better - so long as we actually leave.

Re your comment:

"And finally on immigration we will as a minimum have to give preferential access to EU workers
." I disagree - you state it as a fact - I really doubt we will do that.

Re my comment on a couple of decades of rebuilding that you pick up on. I am really cool about that - so long as we have left, but is was not meant to imply that the UK will be serving some sentence for 20 years. Some good things, such as independent trade deals, will happen much sooner, I am just recognising the scale of the task represented by the Great Repeal bill - there are a lot of regulations to go through and we will need to either confirm/amend/replace them.

Finally, with regard your view that my comments reflect me being in the 'soft Brexit camp' - I can understand that suggestion but if you read my comments in a different light you could also see I am potentially in the hardest of hard Brexit camp.

My preferred option is that we negotiate, plan and manage full separation without causing damage to the EU - I would even pay to see us separate harmoniously. But I can well accept the UK crashing out early with no deal at all and I would absolutely prefer that happened if the EU game playing in negotiations was seeking to see us operating within a model that did not reflect clear separation.

For me, this is why I will be pleased to see May get a majority from the election that essentially gives her a free hand - free from the machinations of the Remain schemers and also the Brextremists. She can then shoot for the harmonious deal whilst being able to walk away if the EU continue the intransigence that is reflected in their current negotiating mandate. Also, as I have suggested many times, from a negotiating POV, the EU are more likely to act consistent with achieving an harmonious deal if they can see that they are facing off against a UK free of the Westminster machinations that would have been the case without an election.

I personally view these terms of hard and soft to actually be unhelpful - for me how the terms of the deal are shaped all depends on how the negotiations go. It follows that I tend to focus on the 'intended outcome' rather than stipulate Red Lines - at the level you seem to be wanting. When I say 'level, there is not implied criticism - I just see Red Lines described as:
  • not more than £xx pa
  • Immigration to be less than xx pa etc.
To be setting up hostages to fortune that can actually get the parties locked in and possibly falling out over outputs rather than focussing on the intended outcome.
 
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Len, with regard you comment:

"and you failed to mention the transition phase of probably an additional three years still fully or closely aligned to the EU which will be another compromise too far for many leavers"

I feel that this was covered implicitly by my view that I could see us paying contributions for up to 7 years - so long as we actually leave in a manner that reflects full separation.

I appreciate that there will almost certainly be a transition phase - in fact I would go as far as to say that I hope there is one so long as we really leave.

There is much to analyse and plan to unpick/replace with regard all the regulations and processes. If there is no transition phase I would assume that would mean that we have 'crashed out'. Whilst leaving by crashing out is OK by me as it means we have left, it is my fallback option rather than my preferred one. A jointly managed transition would reflect leaving on jointly agreed terms. That is better - so long as we actually leave.

Re your comment:

"And finally on immigration we will as a minimum have to give preferential access to EU workers
." I disagree - you state it as a fact - I really doubt we will do that.

Re my comment on a couple of decades of rebuilding that you pick up on. I am really cool about that - so long as we have left, but is was not meant to imply that the UK will be serving some sentence for 20 years. Some good things, such as independent trade deals, will happen much sooner, I am just recognising the scale of the task represented by the Great Repeal bill - there are a lot of regulations to go through and we will need to either confirm/amend/replace them.

Finally, with regard your view that my comments reflect me being in the 'soft Brexit camp' - I can understand that suggestion but if you read my comments in a different light you could also see I am potentially in the hardest of hard Brexit camp.

My preferred option is that we negotiate, plan and manage full separation without causing damage to the EU - I would even pay to see us separate harmoniously. But I can well accept the UK crashing out early with no deal at all and I would absolutely prefer that happened if the EU game playing in negotiations was seeking to see us operating within a model that did not reflect clear separation.

For me, this is why I will be pleased to see May get a majority from the election that essentially gives her a free hand - free from the machinations of the Remain schemers and also the Brextremists. She can then shoot for the harmonious deal whilst being able to walk away if the EU continue the intransigence that is reflected in their current negotiating mandate. Also, as I have suggested many times, from a negotiating POV, the EU are more likely to act consistent with achieving an harmonious deal if they can see that they are facing off against a UK free of the Westminster machinations that would have been the case without an election.

I personally view these terms of hard and soft to actually be unhelpful - for me how the terms of the deal are shaped all depends on how the negotiations go.
Good post. Worth noting the repeal bill is a bit of a misnomer as it initially involves adopting all EU law into our constitution. I'm personally comfortable with this as it's pragmatic and we can 'unpick' the legislation at our leisure as it suits.
 
I see Len is still wanting answers to his red line questions and definitions of what hard brexit means lol.
 
Good post. Worth noting the repeal bill is a bit of a misnomer as it initially involves adopting all EU law into our constitution. I'm personally comfortable with this as it's pragmatic and we can 'unpick' the legislation at our leisure as it suits.

Yes - people criticise this approach of adopting all the regulations and laws first and then unpicking them, but some just want to criticise. It is simple logistics if we were to assess and take action on each and everyone before leaving that would delay exit for several years
 
Len, with regard your comment:

"and you failed to mention the transition phase of probably an additional three years still fully or closely aligned to the EU which will be another compromise too far for many leavers"

I feel that this was covered implicitly by my view that I could see us paying contributions for up to 7 years - so long as we actually leave in a manner that reflects full separation.

I appreciate that there will almost certainly be a transition phase - in fact I would go as far as to say that I hope there is one so long as we really leave.

There is much to analyse and plan to unpick/replace with regard all the regulations and processes. If there is no transition phase I would assume that would mean that we have 'crashed out'. Whilst leaving by crashing out is OK by me as it means we have left, it is my fallback option rather than my preferred one. A jointly managed transition would reflect leaving on jointly agreed terms. That is better - so long as we actually leave.

Re your comment:

"And finally on immigration we will as a minimum have to give preferential access to EU workers
." I disagree - you state it as a fact - I really doubt we will do that.

Re my comment on a couple of decades of rebuilding that you pick up on. I am really cool about that - so long as we have left, but is was not meant to imply that the UK will be serving some sentence for 20 years. Some good things, such as independent trade deals, will happen much sooner, I am just recognising the scale of the task represented by the Great Repeal bill - there are a lot of regulations to go through and we will need to either confirm/amend/replace them.

Finally, with regard your view that my comments reflect me being in the 'soft Brexit camp' - I can understand that suggestion but if you read my comments in a different light you could also see I am potentially in the hardest of hard Brexit camp.

My preferred option is that we negotiate, plan and manage full separation without causing damage to the EU - I would even pay to see us separate harmoniously. But I can well accept the UK crashing out early with no deal at all and I would absolutely prefer that happened if the EU game playing in negotiations was seeking to see us operating within a model that did not reflect clear separation.

For me, this is why I will be pleased to see May get a majority from the election that essentially gives her a free hand - free from the machinations of the Remain schemers and also the Brextremists. She can then shoot for the harmonious deal whilst being able to walk away if the EU continue the intransigence that is reflected in their current negotiating mandate. Also, as I have suggested many times, from a negotiating POV, the EU are more likely to act consistent with achieving an harmonious deal if they can see that they are facing off against a UK free of the Westminster machinations that would have been the case without an election.

I personally view these terms of hard and soft to actually be unhelpful - for me how the terms of the deal are shaped all depends on how the negotiations go. It follows that I tend to focus on the 'intended outcome' rather than stipulate Red Lines - at the level you seem to be wanting. When I say 'level, there is not implied criticism - I just see Red Lines described as:
  • not more than £xx pa
  • Immigration to be less than xx pa etc.
To be setting up hostages to fortune that can actually get the parties locked in and possibly falling out over outputs rather than focussing on the intended outcome.
Your proposal of a comprehensive trade deal for an annual cash settlement ( phased out over a number of years) is cloud cuckoo land.
The EU will see that as a phased plan for the UK to ultimately gain all of the trade benefits with none of the obligations.
Best of luck though to Teresa if she can get away with that and I would applaud her for doing so but in reality she will have to concede much more and when she does so I would see it as incumbent on Brexiters to give her their full patriotic support and not shout betrayal from the roof tops.
By the way your twenty year 'adjustment' period in the event of us crashing out seems about right but the notion that this will be a gentle low pain process is far too optimistic.
I appreciate however that most Brexiters do not wish to discuss this scenario.
 
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Your proposed settlement of a comprehensive trade deal for an annual cash settlement ( phased out over a number of years) is cloud cuckoo land.
The EU will see that as a phased plan for the UK to ultimately gain all of the trade benefits with none of the obligations.
Best of luck though to Teresa if she can get away with that and I would applaud her for doing so but in reality she will have to concede much more and when she does so I would see it as incumbent on Brexiters to give her their full patriotic support and not shout betrayal from the roof tops.
By the way your twenty year 'adjustment' period in the event of us crashing out seems about right but the notion that this will be a gentle low pain process is far too optimistic.
I appreciate however that most Brexiters do not wish to discuss this scenario.

This post for me shows your bias and frustrations that things have not panned out the way Remainers had thought they would. You absolutely are not as blinkered as some but even you always seem to see things as the EU being very strong and having the whip hand and the UK being weak and will need to cower and give in to all and every demand the EU make.

You say: Your proposed settlement of a comprehensive trade deal for an annual cash settlement ( phased out over a number of years) is cloud cuckoo land.

That is just your opinion. Also I did not say 'a comprehensive trade deal'. Negotiations need to take place and what will come out of those negotiations is subject to a host of factors. I cannot and certainly would not say we will end up with a 'comprehensive trade deal' - equally you simply dismissing that we will get a good trade deal as cloud cuckoo land is, IMO, equally invalid.

And anyway, what does that mean? What constitutes a comprehensive trade deal will vary in people's minds. For me what is entirely possible is that the two parties agree that we continue to trade in the manner in which we currently do - tariff-free. This could be badged as a framework for a number of years whilst the final detail of a replacement TA is negotiated/finalised. So both parties save face. The chances of that happening, from a negotiating POV will be greater if the UK's team are strongly backed and therefore the EU have to give up on stalling.

They really need our money far more that you are willing to acknowledge. I remember you once posting something like 'get over it - they can soon replace.....'

It is becoming increasingly clear that my view that access to our money is a key factor is/was indeed accurate.

When you say: "Best of luck though to Teresa if she can get away with that and I would applaud her for doing so but in reality she will have to concede much more and when she does so I would see it as incumbent on Brexiters to give her their full patriotic support and not shout betrayal from the roof tops."

You are implying that there will be a mass of Leave voters unhappy. I am not sure that you are right at all. Remainers seem to think that there is a range of packages that we can select from with pre-determined conditions - this is just plain wrong and all the banging on from Keir Starmer, Tim Farron and Remain posters on here does not make it anything other than being just plain wrong.

The shape of the deal will evolve from the negotiations and the more that the EU are in a strong position and supported by their acolytes in Westminster the less we will get - it follows that the stronger May's hand is and the greater the freedom exists for her to play 'trump cards' like access to our money - then the more we will get.

I will certainly "....give her my full patriotic support and not shout betrayal from the roof tops."

As I say my outcome is that we are clearly out - I think that you will be surprised that for so many of us that is the same. Of course there will be compromises - but on both sides - that is negotiating.

Finally, when you say: "By the way your twenty year 'adjustment' period in the event of us crashing out seems about right but the notion that this will be a gentle low pain process is far too optimistic."

IMO, you simply have no valid/credible position from which you can make this statement. Until the negotiations have progressed and we start to know what the shape of the deal is then we will not know. If we crash out there might be impacts lasting 20 years - if we secure a good deal then it might be pretty (well relatively) smooth - you are again just looking at it from the doom-mongering Remain perspective.
 
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