Evans vs Toronto

[g180aj]

He looked very neat and tidy in his ball retention and keeping the ball moving around players showing great composure.

 

[Damocles]

You don't think that these trained-for-life Football Development professionals who are paid big salaries, and whose whole career depends on producing first team players might be working with the Senior executives at the club to take a longer term view?

You don't think that people are looking at the last products of City's academy, who were 'given a go' and thrust into the system early? People
Like Johnson, and Barton, and Ireland, and Onuaha who 'arrived early' , quickly peaked and then never fulfilled their potential?

At the top level City need to have a squad containing home grown, long term pros, saving them exorbitant transfer fees and wages. They have just invested £100 million pounds in s system to produce them. Sure as shot there is a proper plan in place to get them in the squad and keep them.

Last night was part of it if you open yours eyes. Read your first post, and listen to what the lad says. What you impatiently lament is happening before your eyes.

Not having it. Your argument is no different from other people's, just better stated.

"Ignore any evidence in front of you and have blind faith because we have good people working at the club"

I'm not big on blind faith for the sake of blind faith. Nor do I think comparing the Academy production system of 2002 to 2015 is in any way a useful comparison and the idea that we'll make a mistake now because we have previous made mistakes is fallacious. It's impatience to you because you aren't a big follower of the Academy system; you have to realise that we've been buying some of the best young players in the world at 14/15 since the takeover and many of them are already ready which is why they're twatting it abroad. Others aren't ready for a full time step up but used correctly could have a big impact on their development such as Pozo, Barker, Evans and that ilk. Pablo Maffeo is a potentially first team squad player right now but is blocked by a man with 700 PL appearances.

The problem is that we have a manager who knows that he is going at the end of the year and has to win trophies, so has to keep the first team squad as played as possible no matter what their future at the club is. Hence we get situations where we go 6-0 at West Ham in a cup game and play our second and third string rather than the kids. Situations where Scott Sinclair plays more first team minutes than our entire Academy. Situations where we have had only two Academy players play any form of competitive football for City since 2012, one for 13 minutes against Blackburn in a cup and one played 2 matches out of position in a system he's never played before.

As I said in another thread, there's no argument here for the sensible. This is a problem and some want to bury their heads in the sand rather than recognising it, coming out with a long list of cliched excuses and blind faith. I thought you'd be the last person on that boat but you evidently need to watch these lads play more if you think they're "a bunch of skinny kids getting knocked off the ball" as I've seen you refer to them. There's no argument at all amongst those who consistently watch these players that the lack of first team opportunities is stifling them and we're starting to lose players because of it. I'm more worried about the potential players we'll lose in the future. Chelsea had a shocking youth system for years because no young players would join them so they never promoted young players so young players would join them. We can't afford to live like that in the modern football world with rules on expenditure and rules on homegrown players.

 

[Didsbury Dave]

Not having it. Your argument is no different from other people's, just better stated.

"Ignore any evidence in front of you and have blind faith because we have good people working at the club"

I'm not big on blind faith for the sake of blind faith. Nor do I think comparing the Academy production system of 2002 to 2015 is in any way a useful comparison and the idea that we'll make a mistake now because we have previous made mistakes is fallacious. It's impatience to you because you aren't a big follower of the Academy system; you have to realise that we've been buying some of the best young players in the world at 14/15 since the takeover and many of them are already ready which is why they're twatting it abroad. Others aren't ready for a full time step up but used correctly could have a big impact on their development such as Pozo, Barker, Evans and that ilk. Pablo Maffeo is a potentially first team squad player right now but is blocked by a man with 700 PL appearances.

The problem is that we have a manager who knows that he is going at the end of the year and has to win trophies, so has to keep the first team squad as played as possible no matter what their future at the club is. Hence we get situations where we go 6-0 at West Ham in a cup game and play our second and third string rather than the kids. Situations where Scott Sinclair plays more first team minutes than our entire Academy. Situations where we have had only two Academy players play any form of competitive football for City since 2012, one for 13 minutes against Blackburn in a cup and one played 2 matches out of position in a system he's never played before.

As I said in another thread, there's no argument here for the sensible. This is a problem and some want to bury their heads in the sand rather than recognising it, coming out with a long list of cliched excuses and blind faith. I thought you'd be the last person on that boat but you evidently need to watch these lads play more if you think they're "a bunch of skinny kids getting knocked off the ball" as I've seen you refer to them. There's no argument at all amongst those who consistently watch these players that the lack of first team opportunities is stifling them and we're starting to lose players because of it. I'm more worried about the potential players we'll lose in the future. Chelsea had a shocking youth system for years because no young players would join them so they never promoted young players so young players would join them. We can't afford to live like that in the modern football world with rules on expenditure and rules on homegrown players.

You're missing the point spectacularly. IT isn't blind faith. It's common sense. The idea that City would invest all this money in youth development and then not progress the youth properly is preposterous. I don't really care what the gossip on the touchlines is from people blinkered by their own situation is. It's a ridiculous notion. We have invested £100 million capital in this to save The Sheikh hundreds of millions in the long term.

For the last two season in the cups we have played a mix of fringe squad players (who the manager also has to keep happy and motivated) and regulars. He puts bigger guns on the bench and brings them on if we need them. This has happened time and time again. You can "stick George Evans on the bench" in a home cup tie, but what happens if Silva gets injured, Ya Ya gets sent off and you're a goal down? Evans is your only midfielder, so you bring him on, the game bypasses him and we out of the cup. No good for him and no good for City. That's why you need the option of Sami Nasri or James Milner: because going out of the cup is first priority, and Pellegrini's job depends on it.

Let me put it as simply as I can. City are now on a 4 or 5 match tour of the states, playing reasonable level football at 80% intensity in front of big crowds. By the end of this tour the entiire crop of "next generation" possibilities will have had experience playing for 60 minutes creating chances alongside David Silva, 45 minutes holding the line with Vincent Kompany or linking up with Kolorov. Some of them will score relatively high profile goals like Evans did, or will make runs that Sergio Aguero reads. Now that is proper experience, unlike some 10 minute cameo for one young player chasing the ball at the end of a high intensity cup tie. What we are doing takes these 6 or 7 players to the next level, so that next season, they might feel that little bit less overawed and nervous coming off the bench a goal down at home to Watford in the FA Cup.

These lads coming through look like they are at least within touching distance of squad inclusion, but they are blatantly and obviously not there yet, whatever their Dads or some Training Ground Trainspotter might think. They will be a lot closer after this tour. So let's see what happens next season before we start getting all simplistic and reactionary about their sparing first team inclusion so far. I don't have "blind faith" in our club hierarchy, but I know 100% that integrating youth and keeping them in the squad is integral to this club's strategy, and the sensible thing to do is to understand that the club are taking a long term view on this, rather than chucking them in and then seeing their career stall and go backwards.

Think this through logically. Realise that the gossip you are hearing is one side of the story, and not the bigger picture. Let's see what happens to these lad's careers, and whether we get one or two earning a first team place for good, before jumping the gun.

 

[Damocles]

You're missing the point spectacularly. IT isn't blind faith. It's common sense. The idea that City would invest all this money in youth development and then not progress the youth properly is preposterous. I don't really care what the gossip on the touchlines is from people blinkered by their own situation is. It's a ridiculous notion. We have invested £100 million capital in this to save The Sheikh hundreds of millions in the long term.

Nobody is suggesting it is company policy, they are suggesting it is the policy of the manager.

For the last two season in the cups we have played a mix of fringe squad players (who the manager also has to keep happy and motivated) and regulars. He puts bigger guns on the bench and brings them on if we need them. This has happened time and time again. You can "stick George Evans on the bench" in a home cup tie, but what happens if Silva gets injured, Ya Ya gets sent off and you're a goal down? Evans is your only midfielder, so you bring him on, the game bypasses him and we out of the cup. No good for him and no good for City. That's why you need the option of Sami Nasri or James Milner: because going out of the cup is first priority, and Pellegrini's job depends on it.

This will never not be the case. This will literally be every single game in the future of Manchester City. There will never not be a pressured situation.

Let me put it as simply as I can. City are now on a 4 or 5 match tour of the states, playing reasonable level football at 80% intensity in front of big crowds. By the end of this tour the entiire crop of "next generation" possibilities will have had experience playing for 60 minutes creating chances alongside David Silva, 45 minutes holding the line with Vincent Kompany or linking up with Kolorov. Some of them will score relatively high profile goals like Evans did, or will make runs that Sergio Aguero reads. Now that is proper experience, unlike some 10 minute cameo for one young player chasing the ball at the end of a high intensity cup tie. What we are doing takes these 6 or 7 players to the next level, so that next season, they might feel that little bit less overawed and nervous coming off the bench a goal down at home to Watford in the FA Cup.

They are playing football which is a friendly against people of lower Championship or League 1 standard. This is absolutely nowhere near a replacement for Premier League football and as noted earlier can actually make them go backwards. The amount of world class players who get their debuts in friendlies is almost none.

These lads coming through look like they are at least within touching distance of squad inclusion, but they are blatantly and obviously not there yet, whatever their Dads or some Training Ground Trainspotter might think. They will be a lot closer after this tour. So let's see what happens next season before we start getting all simplistic and reactionary about their sparing first team inclusion so far. I don't have "blind faith" in our club hierarchy, but I know 100% that integrating youth and keeping them in the squad is integral to this club's strategy, and the sensible thing to do is to understand that the club are taking a long term view on this, rather than chucking them in and then seeing their career stall and go backwards.

Yeah, fuck people who watch them. Far better to judge them off the opinions of people who don't watch them.

Think this through logically. Realise that the gossip you are hearing is one side of the story, and not the bigger picture. Let's see what happens to these lad's careers, and whether we get one or two earning a first team place for good, before jumping the gun.

I have thought it through, and have done so for two years. You're just on the wrong side of the issue because you haven't yet thought it through properly. You'll eventually see it my way, I absolutely guarantee it.

 

[Didsbury Dave]

Not much of answer there, Dammers. You studiously avoided my mention of the last players who were thrust into the first team early, too. I'll throw Micah and Boyata in there if you like. Quite a list, now, isn't it?

Let's see where we are in a year or two. If any of these players become top level pros at other competitor clubs, then your point was right. If they don't then it was wrong. If one or two establish themselves in our first team, then it was spectacularly wrong.

 

[blueinsa]

If they are good enough, they will play regardless of age.

To suggest otherwise is ridiculous in my book as what do we gain from purposely not playing a player that would make a difference?

None.

 

[ljones15]

 

[Damocles]

Not much of answer there, Dammers. You studiously avoided my mention of the last players who were thrust into the first team early, too. I'll throw Micah and Boyata in there if you like. Quite a list, now, isn't it?

Let's see where we are in a year or two. If any of these players become top level pros at other competitor clubs, then your point was right. If they don't then it was wrong. If one or two establish themselves in our first team, then it was spectacularly wrong.

I referenced it when talking about the comparison of the old Academy system with the new one.

Denis Suarez already plays for Barcelona, on loan at Sevilla and in their first team playing in European competition. Karim Rekik is winning titles at PSV and has been capped for Netherlands and played in European competition. Denayer is winning titles at Celtic and capped by Belgium already. Marcos Lopes is playing first team at Lille and was unlucky to miss out on the last Portugal squad through injury.

I'd argue that all 4 of those will be Champions League quality players with no problem at all in the future and their total appearances in City's first team is 8, with only 1 of them being a start.

This is what I mean, I'm not asking that George Glendon (with all due respect to him as a player) replace Yaya Toure in our first team because he's a local lad and a City fan but that after spending 7 years buying the brightest and best young talents in Europe then we should probably give them more experience in our team rather than loaning them out elsewhere to clubs who play nothing like we do where they get all of the technique kicked out of them. Instead we keep them in and around our squad and give them 10 minutes here when 3-0 up and a start there instead of giving it to Scott Sinclair. I don't feel that that is too much to ask and the failure of the manager to do so should be regarded as a failure on his part.

 

[Didsbury Dave]

Well time will bear out whether me and MCFC, or you and your pal on the touchline, is wrong. To me the "10 minutes here and there" approach hasn't worked so far, and I think that the experience they are getting now on tour, and on loan, is designed to get them ready long term. I think your thinking is old fashioned and your logic flawed and self-defeating. Winning titles at Celtic is all part of the development plan for these lads, as is scoring the winner in front of 35,000 fans and the TV cameras. When these lads do get their ten minutes, or 45 minutes, or even 90 minutes, I expect them to be ready - mentally as well as physically. And it is entirely reasonable for the manager and Director of Football to feel the same.

 

[moomba]

Not much of answer there, Dammers. You studiously avoided my mention of the last players who were thrust into the first team early, too. I'll throw Micah and Boyata in there if you like. Quite a list, now, isn't it?

Let's see where we are in a year or two. If any of these players become top level pros at other competitor clubs, then your point was right. If they don't then it was wrong. If one or two establish themselves in our first team, then it was spectacularly wrong.

Not sure you can say Micah and Boyata's development suffered by playing first team football, or that either would be better footballers today if they were held back years ago.