Post Match Thread: Election 2017

[Bigga]

I just love the small of hypocracy first thing in the morning....
http://metro.co.uk/2017/06/11/labou...ast-time-there-was-a-hung-parliament-6701733/

This is isn't New Labour.

Get that through your skull.

 

[vonkeynotvenky]

This is isn't New Labour.

Get that through your skull.

If Labour would have clarified the Trident and security services points as well as put a bit of meat on the bones about leaving the single market they would have gotten my vote. Maybe if another GE is called they very well may do this. And you're correct this doesn't have the stench of Blair about it.

 

[Damocles]

This is isn't New Labour.

Get that through your skull.

And Gordon Brown didn't run under a New Labour platform either. If you think he did then you either don't know what New Labour is or don't know who Gordon Brown is.

It never fails to amaze how the losers in the Party continue to denigrate the only time we've ever won in the last half-century or so

 

[Bigga]

Damocles said: ↑

I don't despise the left, I'm an active part of it you clown. What I despise are people who want to "wait for the right Government".

I think you're not only arrogant but infinitely worse than this you're cruel. You dare to tell the disadvantaged, the underprivileged and those in poverty that you're fighting for them while purposely serving up policy that you KNOW will never be electable. Rather than attempting to help them, you tell them that they can only be helped on YOUR terms, when the ideology is right for YOU. It's disgusting. Grotesque. A act of vindictive evilness to give hope to the suffering when you have no intention of honouring it. No intention of compromise so that they can live in a little less discomfort. It's always all about you lot and your special little principles that are SO moral that everybody else has to wait and instead heat their houses with the warm glow of your ethical smugness.

If a Tory Government lines up tomorrow that will fund public services to a world class degree, pursue a progressive social agenda and invest in downtrodden communities infrastructure then I'd vote for them in a heartbeat. I'd vote for pretty much any party in the world who would do that. Because it's not about me, not about handwringing about tie colours.

Because it's about making the people who are fucked, less fucked and doing it right now instead of "waiting for the right Government". All of your lot on the far left are a bunch of jumped up self righteous tossers. You are fucking useless to me.

You need to explain the difference between 'Blairism' and Conservatism and why addressing the skills shortage, building homes and tackling income inequality isn't going to help get to people you want it to help.

The state of Kansas tried the whole tax less thing that people have been clamouring for and guess what? It fooked up big time cos NOBODY PAID FOR ANYTHING!!Didn't create wealth, didn't create job renewal, but it DID allow for further cuts to gov programs like... education. Like kind of what happens now.

I'm confused where you stand, quite honestly.

The Toffs aren't going fund public services OR do anything progressive as that works against their core principles. Blair aimed for some of what your wanting, but shackled us to unwanted wars at the same time, partly creating the atmosphere we live in today.

Is that the mill you're willing to carry around your neck in order to move forward??

 

[Bigga]

And Gordon Brown didn't run under a New Labour platform either. If you think he did then you either don't know what New Labour is or don't know who Gordon Brown is.

It never fails to amaze how the losers in the Party continue to denigrate the only time we've ever won in the last half-century or so

Depends on your point of view...

Brown, even more than Blair, was the true architect of New Labour. It was Brown who recognised, long before any of his contemporaries, just how much Labour would have to change in order to survive. It was Brown, not Blair, who built the machine to force through that change. It was Brown, not Blair, who imposed iron fiscal discipline. It was Brown, not Blair, who wooed business, and sacrificed the sacred Labour cows of tax and spend.

But history is written by the victors. So after New Labour had become toxic, and Brown had successfully moved against his bitter rival, he ensured his role within the grand modernising project was expunged from the record books.

And so now a new history must be written. Gordon Brown the Saviour. Of the nation. Of the Union. Of the party he loves. It will be a fiction, but that is irrelevant. Precedent decrees every prime ministerial career must end in success.

Any lies here...??

 

[Chippy_boy]

Depends on your point of view...

No.

"It never fails to amaze how the losers in the Party continue to denigrate the only time we've ever won in the last half-century or so" relates to a statement of fact. It's not an opinion.

You might like to rewrite history, but in the past 50 years your hard left policies have never resulted in being in government. Blair had three terms.

 

[Bigga]

And another thing; there seems to be a direct correlation between losses from the Democrats and (New) Labour. However, Bernie Sanders and Jeremy Corbyn are extremely popular in their similar outlook, yet both failed to translate their vision to the greater audience and people have voted for rich people/ companies ahead of themselves.

Why??

 

[Bigga]

No.

"It never fails to amaze how the losers in the Party continue to denigrate the only time we've ever won in the last half-century or so" relates to a statement of fact. It's not an opinion.

I posted fact of what happened under Brown.

Your 'opinion' is redundant.

 

[1.618034]

How do you define an adequate police force?
I ask because as far as I can see based on crime statistics the police force are doing a great job.

As has been seen in the last few weeks, the role of the Police is more than just reducing crime statistics.

My brother-in-law is a copper in Greater Manchester and yesterday was his, and many other's 27th straight day working... He's finally get a day of tomorrow. A day.

All that over-time might be great for their bank balances, but terrible for the force budget, and their health.

For the same amount that it would cost to pay all this over-time, they could just employ more officers and not have them and the force stressed to breaking point.

Cutting services to the bone through "Austerity" needs reversing as the Tory version of "adequate" clearly isn't.

 

[Damocles]

Back in the 1980's I worked at British Aerospace. I had been an unashamed Thatcherite previously but, working in an industrial setting for the first time, it was starting to become clear what she was about. More by accident than design, I became union secretary for ASTMS as it was then and it brought me into contact with people much more political than I was. Two of those, Paul Murphy (my union chair) & Jack Flanagan (my branch chair) were Manchester councillors. Paul was very much on the right of the party whereas Jack was more difficult to pin down. I'd say he was more centre-left publicly but maybe privately a bit to the right. Through their eyes I saw the battles they were having with Militant Tendency along with people like Richard Leese & Graham Stringer. They'd pack Paul's meeting in Lightbowne but he'd pack more of his supporters in. He was always on the verge of being disciplined by the mainstream Labour left but they never quite had enough support to manage it. He fought on for what he thought was right, regardless of the labels slung at him, which was making the lives of his constituents better as far as he could.

Not sure what became of Jack but the other three are still there, doing their bit for the people of Manchester. Momentum are relatively harmless compared to Militant. You should fight for what you believe in as you appear to believe in the right things.

What I believe in is not electable though. It does nobody any good apart from my own vanity to promote what is essentially a form of global socialism through federalism and technological utility. No matter how hard I try mate, no matter what I say and how many times I explain it or how convincing my arguments are, that will not win an election in the current UK.

I happen to believe that Tony Blair and Bill Clinton are the greatest left wing politicians of our age and that their views on how to engage in politics are generally correct. As they've previously discussed, you can't make the electorate jump - not in strong numbers. You have to get into power and make the real change that will then spur on the next advance and the next and the next. We can't turn the Cotswolds Red by ignoring them. All of those Tories voters voted for the Tories because they believe in many of the principles that the Conservatives do and I don't see how ignoring them altogether and plying on with essentially the same politics that has lost 3 elections in a row (though admittedly to very different strengths of that politics) is going to do so. What's that saying about repeating the same thing and expecting different results?

You can't make people's lives better by talking. You can only do it by passing legislation and running Departments. So while I would love to go around and talk about how merging the EU with similar organisations in Asia and Africa would be fantastic for all concerned, when there's people who are suffering cuts and need a Labour Government it would be selfish to do so. It's indulging my fantasies rather than their need.

You're right on the Momentum/Militant thing. They're mainly hot air. But fuck me, they're annoying hot air.