Post Match Thread: Election 2017

[Damocles]

You yourself have clearly said you would vote against Labour. Well worth reading Clause 1 4b before you take up the offer your local councillor.

I said I would vote against Labour if a progressive party had a better chance of winning an election yes. So should you. So should every Labour member. Because it's not a football team ffs, it's about making real change happen.

 

[cibaman]

Queen's Speech to be delayed. How long have they got? I wonder whether this possibility was flagged up to HM by May on Friday.

 

[Chippy_boy]

I posted fact of what happened under Brown.

Your 'opinion' is redundant.

A bit like your posts. "the losers in the Party continue to denigrate the only time we've ever won in the last half-century or so", is a fact. You said it depends on your point of view. It does not.

 

[Bigga]

A bit like your posts. "the losers in the Party continue to denigrate the only time we've ever won in the last half-century or so", is a fact. You said it depends on your point of view. It does not.

You, clearly, didn't read the original post.

It was in relation to how Brown is viewed in his tenure.

I have NO FOOKING IDEA what the fook you're talking about!!

 

[abu13]

Gerry Adams is a ****, how he is allowed a platform amazes me.

 

[abu13]

Queen's Speech to be delayed. How long have they got? I wonder whether this possibility was flagged up to HM by May on Friday.

I think it is unheard of for this to happen.

 

[Damocles]

Except he voted for Corbyn, twice.

Because Corbyn COULD have won. The PLP fucked him, we didn't manage to shake the terrorist label and we didn't put across how well costed the costed manifesto was.

He had a Trump or Sanders like momentum and because we're idiots, the Labour Party decided to fight the wave of enthusiasm rather than ride it. If they would have ridden it, if the terrorism stuff hadn't hit so hard, and yes, if the Manifesto was a bit more centrist then we could well have been looking at a Labour majority today.

But they didn't, it didn't, and we didn't so we've lost the election by 60 seats and people are fucked for 5 more years. The next step has got to be looking where we go from here and I've explained previously that if Corbyn acted as kingmaker to a more electable candidate, perhaps Lewis or if we're staying in this level of socialism than maybe Burgon, then it could be a good thing in the end. He should obviously stay where he is for a few months at least to see what the next Government looks like though.

And for all that is holy, he needs to start backing a 2nd Referendum and backing it strong. It doesn't matter about voters now and previous statements, if we can convince the nation that Leave was purely a Tory thing then we can make this an albatross around their necks for generations to come.

 

[Damocles]

I posted fact of what happened under Brown.

Your 'opinion' is redundant.

Actually you posted Dan Hodges opinion of what happened under Brown, not facts.

New Labour was devised by Blair, Brown, Mandelson, and a few others including David Miliband. There was no "Chief Architect" because that's not how political organisations generally make decisions, any more than the manifesto we've just put out isn't built primarily by Corbyn but is a collation of the ideas of Corbyn, Abbott, McDonnell and a few others that they've held over many years.

Peter Mandelson's book "The Third Man" is an interesting read if you want to know about the history of the New Labour formation without the self promotion of Blair or Brown's accounts.

 

[BlueAnorak]

I work for the NHS, I see it for my own eyes how tired doctors are. I see how many clinics they have to trudge through based on 20 min slots. I've seen how doctors have to run clinics at 2 different hospitals and have have multiple skills in specialist areas. I have also seen how tired doctors, covering many areas due to lack of support, failed my brother in the New Year, misdiagnosing him or opting to let him pass due to other 'more serious incidents'.

Like a man having classic symptoms of a heart attack isn't serious??

What I'm saying is that the NHS can't afford to lose the physicians it trains to other private hospitals, here or abroad. I think the NHS should hold a registration for a time and that if a doctor goes to to anywhere else within a period of time, then that establishment should pay for that doctor's training percentage-wise from full to partial stages of registration.

A transfer fee, if you will.

Doctors get support from more doctors, less tired doctors regain their faculties and make less mistakes, clinic burdens are eased, the waiting time comes down, if a private hospital head hunts a doctor then they pay for the whole training and that goes back into the system for another doctor, 'sic pace'.

I think it's a self replenishing idea and moves us forward.

We agree on a lot then.
But...
Many from med school will just go straight abroad if they are offered servitude in the NHS with a pretty poor salary.

 

[Chippy_boy]

What I believe in is not electable though. It does nobody any good apart from my own vanity to promote what is essentially a form of global socialism through federalism and technological utility. No matter how hard I try mate, no matter what I say and how many times I explain it or how convincing my arguments are, that will not win an election in the current UK.

I happen to believe that Tony Blair and Bill Clinton are the greatest left wing politicians of our age and that their views on how to engage in politics are generally correct. As they've previously discussed, you can't make the electorate jump - not in strong numbers. You have to get into power and make the real change that will then spur on the next advance and the next and the next. We can't turn the Cotswolds Red by ignoring them. All of those Tories voters voted for the Tories because they believe in many of the principles that the Conservatives do and I don't see how ignoring them altogether and plying on with essentially the same politics that has lost 3 elections in a row (though admittedly to very different strengths of that politics) is going to do so. What's that saying about repeating the same thing and expecting different results?

You can't make people's lives better by talking. You can only do it by passing legislation and running Departments. So while I would love to go around and talk about how merging the EU with similar organisations in Asia and Africa would be fantastic for all concerned, when there's people who are suffering cuts and need a Labour Government it would be selfish to do so. It's indulging my fantasies rather than their need.

You're right on the Momentum/Militant thing. They're mainly hot air. But fuck me, they're annoying hot air.

I'll throw you a crumb of comfort...

If the Tories have so much as one atom of sense between them they will realise they've just been given a VERY big warning shot across the bows. Hopefully they won't just stick their heads in the sand and carry on oblivious. Even more hopefully, they won't swing further to the right and confine the Tories, not Labour to a prolonged period of opposition.

Hopefully they will moderate their policies to seek to win back votes they've lost. Things like reversing some of the policing cuts and further increases in NHS spending, for example.

If they were to do these things, although your preferred government may not be in power, at least some of the policies would be adopted. Corbyn would actually have done something useful if it pans out this way.