Swansea - Post match thread

[Lancet Fluke]

You're argument's weak as fuck mate. You're saying that Vinny isn't getting picked because of fitness issues, and yet he's fit. So what's Pep waiting for when he's fit and ready to play having played 90 minutes a week ago with no bad reactions? Swansea was a BIG game coming off the back of what happened the previous day to Arsenal and Liverpool. Why would Pep leave a player who he thinks he superior on the bench and pick someone who he thinks is a worse defender? If anyone's doing our manager a disservice it's you by suggesting that if he rates his other defenders higher than Vinny he knows fuck all.

I'd say you're being a bit simplistic there. Vinnie may be fit and he may have made it through 90 mins at Palace but if he had started, fit or not, I would have been half expecting him to blow up again at any moment and I guess lots of people in the crowd would have been fearing the same. Is it really a weak as fuck argument to think Pep may feel the same? Vinnie was supposedly fit for the League Cup match at old Trafford but came off at half time, as you say Sunday was a big match, maybe Pep has lost trust in Vinnie's fitness. I would have liked to see him give Vinnie the chance to go on a bit of a run even if that did mean he has a set back and has to walk off the pitch after a few minutes but it's easy for me to say that, I'm not the manager who has to take responsibility for the team and indeed the responsibility for Vinnie's long term health so maybe Pep doesn't think it is ok to just see how it goes and see if he has another setback. You see that as a weak argument, that's fair enough, personally I see it as a more likely scenario than him thinking Otamendi is a better player than Vinnie or better suited to Pep's way of playing than Vinnie. And I'm not trying to have a huge go at Otamendi there by the way but he isn't in the same class as Vinnie and doesn't look any more well suited to "the system" than Vinnie would be. We aren't going to agree and neither of us know for sure I suppose unless of course you have a direct line to Pep.

 

[BillyShears]

Can he rely on Gundogan this season? No. Will he still be here next? Yes. Will he be eased back into the first team? Yes. Might he be on the bench a couple of times, even after playing 90 minutes to ensure he's fully fit (and match fit) of course.

Same thing for Vincent. He's just come back from an injury that he's broken down from time and time again. He made it through 90 minutes but that doesn't mean he's suddenly fully fit or match fit.

You seem to think that in modern day football it's a case of being a) fit or b) unfit. That's absurd. Vincent was deemed fit enough to start against Palace and most were surprised he played for as long as he did in his first game back but he coped with the pace of the game easily. Not one of us would have then expected him to start against West Ham. Many thought he might be back for Swansea, but it's not really a surprise he wasn't. Why have him on the bench? For the simple reason he's Vincent Kompany. He's the club captain that's overseen our successful times and he's a leader. I saw genuine improvement defensively against Palace and West Ham. Stones looked like a man who thought, if I cock up again I'm out. Kompany's presence put a rocket up him. Phil Foden made the bench once. Was he going to play? No. But did was it still worthwhile? Of course. It exposes him to a matchday squad and that’s a good experience and gives him the hunger to get on the pitch next time.


3 games in 8 days wasn’t going to happen, even 2 was unlikely. He’ll be eased back into things to ensure his fitness. Pep wants Vincent Kompany to be fit. A fit Vincent Kompany is reliable. More so than our other options by a country mile.


He’s not going to risk him having another injury and he’ll want him fit. No point risking him Pellegrini style for a game we should be winning without him anyway. We want him fully fit for a long time. With him fit I can see us going unbeaten to the end of the season. He steps up when he needs to, he pressures the defender without diving in when the situation arises and he’s comfortable on the ball. The whole team, and crowd, lifts when he’s on the pitch. Pep wants reliable players of course, so he’s giving Kompany time to get back to full fitness and match fitness. If he breaks down again then that’s life. But you can rest assured Pep rates him more highly than any other defender at the club, as we all do.

I fundamentally disagree with this assessment of why Vinny wasn't picked. Some of the things you say are deeply illogical also. For example:

"He made it through 90 minutes but that doesn't mean he's suddenly fully fit or match fit.".

Well okay. But then if he isn't match fit how does he get match fit? And if he wasn't fully fit then why did he start? To get match fit. Yet since then he's not featured. Odd way to get a player match fit.

"He'll be eased back ... to ensure his fitness."

Not playing him is a great way to ensure that he remains fit enough to appear on the bench. Beyond that I don't understand why he needs to be eased into anything. He's been out with a series of muscle injuries which tend to flare up during competitive games. Training regularly is simply no barometer for how those muscles will cope with a game. He needs to play to see if he's really passed those injuries. If he isn't playing we simply don't know.

"He's not going to risk him having another injury and he'll want him fit."

With respect, Guardiola said earlier this season any player on the bench is fit enough to start. So Vinny's fit enough to start games. Hence he started at Palace. To say he doesn't want to risk him having another injury and that he's doing that by not playing him seems illogical at best.

It's worth noting. Vinny was in FULL training for about 3 weeks before the Palace game.

 

[supercity88]

I fundamentally disagree with this assessment of why Vinny wasn't picked. Some of the things you say are deeply illogical also. For example:

"He made it through 90 minutes but that doesn't mean he's suddenly fully fit or match fit.".

Well okay. But then if he isn't match fit how does he get match fit? And if he wasn't fully fit then why did he start? To get match fit. Yet since then he's not featured. Odd way to get a player match fit.

"He'll be eased back ... to ensure his fitness."

Not playing him is a great way to ensure that he remains fit enough to appear on the bench. Beyond that I don't understand why he needs to be eased into anything. He's been out with a series of muscle injuries which tend to flare up during competitive games. Training regularly is simply no barometer for how those muscles will cope with a game. He needs to play to see if he's really passed those injuries. If he isn't playing we simply don't know.

"He's not going to risk him having another injury and he'll want him fit."

With respect, Guardiola said earlier this season any player on the bench is fit enough to start. So Vinny's fit enough to start games. Hence he started at Palace. To say he doesn't want to risk him having another injury and that he's doing that by not playing him seems illogical at best.

It's worth noting. Vinny was in FULL training for about 3 weeks before the Palace game.

He's made it through his first 90 minutes in an age and needs to be monitored.
Mancini said we weren't going to win the league. Ranieri did the same. Pep said something about Jesus being like a watermelon. It's all talk for the media. Of course if you're on the bench it means that should you need to go on you're fit enough to do so, but some managers historically decided against picking a substitute goalkeeper because it was unlikely they'd be needed.

He was on the bench because it was felt he could be used if needed, and for his value as a presence in the matchday squad.


You say he needs to play to prove fitness, and I agree. So the 3 weeks in training count for little. The 90 minutes at Palace count for a lot and he’ll have been assessed on what impact that’s had. He wasn’t ever going to play at West Ham, that would have been too much too soon. As I said it’s not a black and white between being fit or unfit. He could have played against Swansea but Pep decided not to risk him again and didn’t use him from the bench.


Do you really think Pep doesn’t rate Kompany? I don’t really get what your stance is. If he gets severely injured again then he’s not going to stay at the club, but Pep isn’t going to run him into the ground or do anything that might lead to an injury. He’s not going to risk players unnecessarily. Like most of us fans, he’ll rate Kompany more highly than any other defender we have at the club and he’ll make sure he does his best to ensure Vincent stays injury free.

 

[BillyShears]

Do you really think Pep doesn’t rate Kompany? I don’t really get what your stance is. If he gets severely injured again then he’s not going to stay at the club, but Pep isn’t going to run him into the ground or do anything that might lead to an injury. He’s not going to risk players unnecessarily. Like most of us fans, he’ll rate Kompany more highly than any other defender we have at the club and he’ll make sure he does his best to ensure Vincent stays injury free.

I equally don't get your stance. At what point do we remove Vinny from cotton wool and start actually using him? After he's been in full training for a month? For two month? Seriously, what use is a player who by your own admission will be sold if he gets "severely injured again".

Simply put, my opinion is that Pep's already decided what happens to Vinny. As I said in a post the other day my suspicion is that Vinny's barely going to get any game time between now and the end of the season. If I was a cynic I'd suggest that they will do that to make sure that he's fit come the summer so they can sell him. Either way the point is that come the summer he'll get sold.

 

[HelloCity]

I think some of it is man management.

If Pep keeps putting Kompany into the starting XI as soon as he is fit then it sends the message to the other defenders that they are not first choice.

Now this wouldn't be a problem if he could stay fit but if Pep puts him straight in each time and he breaks down then you're left having to play defenders for the vast majority of time who don't feel like they are top draw in the eyes of the manager.

I see Kompany being eased back in gradually because of this. If he stays fit then great, if he doesn't, well he wasn't first choice anyway so as you were for the current centre back pairing.

 

[Machiavelli]

I think Pep is deliberately breaking up our old spine. Possibly only Silva left for next season?

 

[mcfcphil]

I equally don't get your stance. At what point do we remove Vinny from cotton wool and start actually using him? After he's been in full training for a month? For two month? Seriously, what use is a player who by your own admission will be sold if he gets "severely injured again".

Simply put, my opinion is that Pep's already decided what happens to Vinny. As I said in a post the other day my suspicion is that Vinny's barely going to get any game time between now and the end of the season. If I was a cynic I'd suggest that they will do that to make sure that he's fit come the summer so they can sell him. Either way the point is that come the summer he'll get sold.

Since Kompany was "fit" following what has to all intents been 12 months out injured we have played three games. He played in one of them and has been on the bench in two. I don't think we can really read too much into Pep's thinking through his selections after just three matches. If he'd started on Sunday then everyone would be saying "Vinny's back" because he's played two out of the last three games. That would be reading too much into it - just like we're reading too much into the fact he didn't play. It's only one game.
Give it a few months when we (hopefully) start having two games a week again and it will become very apparent where Vinny stands in the grand scheme of things.

 

[Father Paul]

If you and LF don't see where Pep is going fair enough. But to say that we got out of jail against Swansea sums up the shit negative mentality that seems to permeate through too many of our supporters. If we were lucky what exactly were Swansea who on another day could've been four down inside half an hour? Did they not "get out of jail"?

I'd love to know what exactly people like you want. We're third, in the knock outs of the CL, and have slapped the rags in their own back yard. Fine we might not win the title but as far as first seasons go in the league, it isn't a bad one for Pep. The jury can only be out if you're got wildly unrealistic expectations or actually just don't like him and want him to fail.

Firsly I agree with your general sentiment that Pep is building and we need to get behind him. However, notwithstanding that we should have been further ahead a half time the way the second half unfolded we did in the end get out of jail. The Swansea goal when it arrived was no surprise to me and indeed most people in the stadium and watching and fully deserved. It is of some concern to me that the manager was very slow to react to the change in the game and make alterations/substitutions to counter this. It was if he expected us to get a second goal in denial of the fact that it was Swansea that were far more likely to score. This is not the first time this season that he has been slow to react imo that is not a "shit negative mentality" but merely a fair observation.

 

[Father Paul]

I think some of it is man management.

If Pep keeps putting Kompany into the starting XI as soon as he is fit then it sends the message to the other defenders that they are not first choice.

Now this wouldn't be a problem if he could stay fit but if Pep puts him straight in each time and he breaks down then you're left having to play defenders for the vast majority of time who don't feel like they are top draw in the eyes of the manager.

I see Kompany being eased back in gradually because of this. If he stays fit then great, if he doesn't, well he wasn't first choice anyway so as you were for the current centre back pairing.

Yes I think this makes the most sense

 

[BillyShears]

Firsly I agree with your general sentiment that Pep is building and we need to get behind him. However, notwithstanding that we should have been further ahead a half time the way the second half unfolded we did in the end get out of jail. The Swansea goal when it arrived was no surprise to me and indeed most people in the stadium and watching and fully deserved. It is of some concern to me that the manager was very slow to react to the change in the game and make alterations/substitutions to counter this. It was if he expected us to get a second goal in denial of the fact that it was Swansea that were far more likely to score. This is not the first time this season that he has been slow to react imo that is not a "shit negative mentality" but merely a fair observation.

I TOTALLY disagree with that assessment. Firstly, this rather fanciful notion that people "saw" their goal coming is just nonsense. They created literally NOTHING over the 90 minutes. 2 shots on target. One from a free kick which Wily saves. I can't think of a single clear chance they had. There was a header from a corner i vaguely remember being a half chance. Yes they had much more of the ball 2nd half than the first, and yes they put us under much more pressure at times, but their goal was a long shot that went in as much because of the luck of our keeper being caught blind than anything else. Other than that how many times was Wily tested? It makes not one jot of difference though because we STILL proceeded to create a CLEAR chance which Silva should've buried after they scored, plus the header that Kun could've squared for Jesus, on top of the winner Jesus actually scores. Swansea didn't deserve a point unless we're dishing out points for being organised.

Sure I also find Pep's subs a bit odd sometimes. Couldn't understand the Zaba sub at all. Thought it gave Swansea more momentum as Zaba is quite frankly a liability and Ferna was doing fine out there.