Article 50/Brexit Negotiations

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Len Rum said:
'Counteracting the negativity'.
Can't let you get away with that one mate.
Anyone who believes that Theresa the remainer and her Govt are incompetent or deliberately using Brexit to just pacify her own right wing and/or the media or to turn our economy into Britapor, or indeed anyone who is against us leaving the EU and/or wants a second EU in/out referendum or on the terms of departure has a perfect right to act and campaign for those things as long as they do it legally and democratically.
And they are not acting unpatriotically. What is wrong with trying to stop a government ruining your country, if that's what you believe they are doing?
Do you think Farage would have stopped campaigning if remain had won by 52 to 48? No he wouldn't and he would have been perfectly within his rights to do so and certainly could not have been accused of acting in an unpatriotic way.
The majority of Germans supported Hitler in the thirties because they thought he was acting only to restore German pride and borders after WW1.Others saw him as a warmonger and a racist.Some of them protested and were deported or lost their lives - were they unpatriotic?
What right has May got to ask the British people to now unite behind the government in the negotiations?
She has done nothing to unite the country and many don't trust her motives.
So let the negotiations proceed and let citizens of the U.K. act as each sees fit acting democratically and legally to secure an outcome which in their view is in the best interests of the country.
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Hitler , ffs Len you are better than that.
 
Len Rum said:
'Counteracting the negativity'.
Can't let you get away with that one mate.
Anyone who believes that Theresa the remainer and her Govt are incompetent or deliberately using Brexit to just pacify her own right wing and/or the media or to turn our economy into Britapor, or indeed anyone who is against us leaving the EU and/or wants a second EU in/out referendum or on the terms of departure has a perfect right to act and campaign for those things as long as they do it legally and democratically.
And they are not acting unpatriotically. What is wrong with trying to stop a government ruining your country, if that's what you believe they are doing?
Do you think Farage would have stopped campaigning if remain had won by 52 to 48? No he wouldn't and he would have been perfectly within his rights to do so and certainly could not have been accused of acting in an unpatriotic way.
The majority of Germans supported Hitler in the thirties because they thought he was acting only to restore German pride and borders after WW1.Others saw him as a warmonger and a racist.Some of them protested and were deported or lost their lives - were they unpatriotic?
What right has May got to ask the British people to now unite behind the government in the negotiations?
She has done nothing to unite the country and many don't trust her motives.
So let the negotiations proceed and let citizens of the U.K. act as each sees fit acting democratically and legally to secure an outcome which in their view is in the best interests of the country.
Click to expand...

Whoa, mate. For the record, I don't regard either side - or its representatives on here - as unpatriotic. Straight up. Two sides of the same coin, each wanting what they believe is best for the country. And, as a democrat, I don't deny anyone the right to carry on campaigning.

What I do hate is the negativity of some of the arguments. Negative people piss me off, full stop. Some talk as if we have no bargaining power at all, which is crazy. The EU won't roll over but neither will we. I take with a pinch of salt some of the sabre rattling in Brussels and London because it's standard pre-negotiation stuff. However, if things turn sour, I can see views hardening.

Re distrust in Theresa May, that's inevitable. First, the Brexit campaign left a legacy on both sides. Second, she's had to ward off attempts to de-rail the process which, as you suggest, might be democratic but, in her book need to be democratically fought off. Third, a large number of people who are either anti-Tory and/or anti-Brexit won't be won over any time soon whatever she does.

One way or another, this is going to be a fcukin bumpy ride. For all the government's faults and lack of preparedness, at least we (apparently) have someone with a spine to lead us through. At least I hope so. Because I dread to think what sort of fudging or shabby compromises would emanate from the other side of the House.
 
Phil Meup said:
We are fucked...
By an unelected pm.
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Oh you...

We live in a a parliamentary democracy. We voted for party to run the country by majority of mps' in the house.

Too complicated? Let's try...

We don't have a presidential system, PMs are not elected.

Too many words? Let's try...

We don't elect prime ministers.

We elect a party and the party is the one that elects its leader.


I think that about covers eveything. Glad to help.
 
Phil Meup said:
We are fucked...
By an unelected pm.
Click to expand...
It was an "unelected" PM (Major) that signed the Maastrict treaty that authorised our commitment to the EU project without giving the public a say on the matter, so what's your point there?
 
Len Rum said:
'Counteracting the negativity'.
Can't let you get away with that one mate.
Anyone who believes that Theresa the remainer and her Govt are incompetent or deliberately using Brexit to just pacify her own right wing and/or the media or to turn our economy into Britapor, or indeed anyone who is against us leaving the EU and/or wants a second EU in/out referendum or on the terms of departure has a perfect right to act and campaign for those things as long as they do it legally and democratically.
And they are not acting unpatriotically. What is wrong with trying to stop a government ruining your country, if that's what you believe they are doing?
Do you think Farage would have stopped campaigning if remain had won by 52 to 48? No he wouldn't and he would have been perfectly within his rights to do so and certainly could not have been accused of acting in an unpatriotic way.
The majority of Germans supported Hitler in the thirties because they thought he was acting only to restore German pride and borders after WW1.Others saw him as a warmonger and a racist.Some of them protested and were deported or lost their lives - were they unpatriotic?
What right has May got to ask the British people to now unite behind the government in the negotiations?
She has done nothing to unite the country and many don't trust her motives.
So let the negotiations proceed and let citizens of the U.K. act as each sees fit acting democratically and legally to secure an outcome which in their view is in the best interests of the country.
Click to expand...

Spot on.

There was one leaver, his name escapes me, who stated that the problems over Gibraltar or being denied parallel trade/divorce negotiations or some other shifty Euro insult, would turn even the diehard remainers against the conniving Continentals!

Errrr? It won't.

You know it and I know it, but they can't see it, they think the pain to come will be Johnny foreigner stabbing us in the back when in reality it'll be this country shooting itself in the foot.

Anyone pointing this out, is, of course, some filthy fifth columnist traitor sucking French dick and taking it up the arse from the Krauts.

We're living in the disunited Kingdom of Daily Mail.
 
"One way or another, this is going to be a fcukin bumpy ride. For all the government's faults and lack of preparedness, at least we (apparently) have someone with a spine to lead us through. At least I hope so. Because I dread to think what sort of fudging or shabby compromises would emanate from the other side of the House.[/QUOTE]"


Fish have spines. I wouldn't trust one to guide us through a complicated and protracted economic withdrawal however. At the very least, apart from having a spine, I'd expect it to have a Maths 'O' level (or above).
 
nico1 said:
Fish have spines. I wouldn't trust one to guide us through a complicated and protracted economic withdrawal however. At the very least, apart from having a spine, I'd expect it to have a Maths 'O' level (or above).
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So, a herring with A levels? Do you know many?
 
Mëtal Bikër said:
It was an "unelected" PM (Major) that signed the Maastrict treaty that authorised our commitment to the EU project without giving the public a say on the matter, so what's your point there?
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This.

We elect governments not PM's.

May's biggest criticism is that she is turning her party into the more traditional centre-right party that it once was, but that in my opinion is a good thing as Cameron was turning it more and more left leaving this country with an unbalanced left/ right divide opposition.
 
The perfect fumble said:
Spot on.

There was one leaver, his name escapes me, who stated that the problems over Gibraltar or being denied parallel trade/divorce negotiations or some other shifty Euro insult, would turn even the diehard remainers against the conniving Continentals!

Errrr? It won't.

You know it and I know it, but they can't see it, they think the pain to come will be Johnny foreigner stabbing us in the back when in reality it'll be this country shooting itself in the foot.

Anyone pointing this out, is, of course, some filthy fifth columnist traitor sucking French dick and taking it up the arse from the Krauts.

We're living in the disunited Kingdom of Daily Mail.
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Maybe, but it's still better than being turned into a country the Gaurdian wants us to turn into.
 
Vic said:
Perhaps the same reason some Brexiters want the EU to fail. Citizens of the world versus little Englanders.

It's not about trashing the UK. It is about not wanting to lose what has been achieved in the EU (including making the Gibraltar issue largely irrelevant) but probably no point rehearsing it all here. If you've never seen yourself as an internationalist you probably wouldn't understand.
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Well - if you read my post earlier on the negotiations it will be clear that I am not wanting the EU to fail, so I repeat:

"Why do Remainers big up everything to do with the EU and trash anything that is a possible positive for the UK?"
 
Len Rum said:
"No deal will be fine"?
Apart from Boris Johnson and some alt right wing loons in the Tory party it's generally accepted this will be a lose lose situation for both sides.
As I know you are aware no deal means extra paperwork,customs delays, (and associated costs), failure of goods and services to comply with necessary standards and regulations ( divergence post Brexit) and the absence of a supra national court to rule on disputes ( we won't accept the ECJ). Just in time complex supply chain businesses will be badly affected.
What bit of that won't impact on day one of post Brexit on UK and EU trade?
Are you suggesting that we will immediately replace that lost business with non EU trade?
Please, your expert assurances would be greatly welcome.
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My guess is that no deal means things carry on as they are. As neither party will want to stop something that works. I cant see much changing with or without a deal. They dont want things to get nasty no more than we do. If it does, then May has reminded them that we will play hardball. Its a straightforward negotiating strategy. You need to be a bit more positive and less like Tim Farron.
 
bluethrunthru said:
my retort would be why do leavers think that the sun shines out of our collective arses and the UK is so needed by the other 27 members that they will just roll over and give the UK what it craves unconditionally?
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Well that is a crap retort IMO.

The first half of your 'retort' demonstrates that you hold the UK in contempt.

If their have to be 'sides' - should you not be on the one that is your country?

The 2nd half is nonsense - we do not think that the EU will 'roll over' - we hope for the best for the UK in what are going to be very difficult negotiations.

Negotiations in which, quite alarmingly the greatest opposition seems to be the 'enemy within'. We have some strong cards to play but seem to be undermined by 'our own'
 
The perfect fumble said:
There's no point in debating the issues with you, there's not the slightest possibility the EU will give us what we want because what we want is ungiveable.

The EU will go on much as before, they'll take a hit but nothing compared to the hit we're going to take, we'll be lucky to hold the UK together.
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Then please do not bother - you have repeatedly demonstrated the quality of your 'debate' and I will not miss it.

So far events have turned out almost exactly as I predicted and not at all as you have. So I will just have to live without the quality of your discourse and perhaps most posters, well those that wish for the best for the UK, should hope that I continue to be close to the mark whilst you 'remain' wide.

Of course the EU do not want to give us what we want and they will only do so if they are forced into it through - ..........its called negotiations stupid

The EU's brightest hope in all this remains the undermining of the UK by its own people - you are clearly a cheerleader
 
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Len Rum said:
It needs IMO, to be either:

a) The UK fold and give the EU the TA they seek - even though it will be 'dressed up' as less than that as the UK need to keep face ( but what do the EU care), or

b) Hard Brexit - they will recover soon enough - we will be holed below the water line.
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Haha brilliant stuff. How on earth did we as a nation that created so much in this world survive for centuries without the basket case political experiment of the EU holding our hands? Certainly not with people like you in charge thats for sure. Best you run away and hide behind the sofa until its all sorted out. Then when its all over we will give you a shout and you can come out for a glass of warm milk and a biscuit.
 
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