smudgedj
Well-Known Member
As we speak there is an Astute class submarine off the coast of Cadiz readying it's TLAM's
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blueinsa
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As we speak there is an Astute class submarine off the coast of Cadiz readying it's TLAM's
Magicpole
Well-Known Member
I think we let them at least start the process and see where its heading before demanding heads on a spike.
I live and work in Scotland and passionately believe in the union but trust me, if and when Scotland votes to leave and its only a matter of time imo, if im still alive i will then get behind it and wish it a complete success because thats surely in our best interests?
I agree. The point isn't to stick anyones head on a spike. It's to keep them on their toes and ensure the best possible outcome.
The choices we have is a bit like having to eat a shit sandwich but you can choose what type of bread.
smudgedj
Well-Known Member
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blueinsa
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How does your "getting behind the uk" manifest itself?
A free run?
Let them just get in with it?
What if how they are "getting on with it" is not up to what we require?
Do we just say, well we voted to leave so any old shite is acceptable?
Mayday Mayday has already backtracked in the no deal better than a bad deal for a simple reason. It's economic suicide.
You cannot expect the 48% who voted to remain to just down tools if the gov are making an arse of it.
They need scrutinised and called out. That's democracy where there should never be a free ride in anything.
Well perhaps a reasonable start would be to make any attempt whatsoever to stop being utterly blinkered and negative and running the UK down when there is no evidence or cause.
We are at the start of a process - you and others on here, are making zero attempt to:
a) be objective/open minded and look to assess the facts of what the government are preparing for or have any empathy for the challenge faced
b) assess what strengths the UK may have in these negotiations and discuss them
c) bring forward any suggestions or debate on how the best deal can be achieved
d) move on at all from pre-23/06 and recognise that we are where we are - not where you wanted us to be.
On the other hand you have made 100% effort to:
a) Slag of the UK - just shooting your mouths off - often just venting and seldom in relation of any event or evidence
b) big up the EU at every conceivable opportunity and often when there is none
c) simply throw out cheap, often childish, one-liners and gifs - seemingly because you collectively do not know how to debate
d) remain in denial and keep living in the pre-23/06 world
But, As I say - it is what it is - I am sure none of us on this thread seeking to support the UK are expecting any change
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smudgedj
Well-Known Member
Takes me back to watching this as a kid
Cheating WAFU bastards.
That's because we're all reasonable people wanting the best possible deal for the UK and the EU.
We can't have the best possible deal (the status quo) and the next best possible deal (the same arrangements but outside the EU with no vote) has been ruled out by the Daily Mail. So everything now is beyond what Remainers want, and anything we suggest is treacherous in your eyes, running down the UK. Simply, May is acting against her own (previous) view of the benefits of membership, running under this jingoistic flag of the "will of the people" (I don't think many voted for your approved negotiating tactic of a scorched earth / jump off a cliff ultimate threat).
The negotiations are in the hands of people who don't agree amongst themselves (I'm not sure Boris even agrees with himself). They are their own enemy within. They don't need us.
"I don't think many voted for your approved negotiating tactic of a scorched earth / jump off a cliff ultimate threat."
Well to make that statement you must not have
a) read what I posted, or if so
b) made any effort to assess it - because no scorched earth in it at all or
c) have not a clue about negotiating - even at the Janet and John level
perhaps all 3
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blueinsa
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Cheating WAFU bastards.
Pmsl. Great days though and a fantastic spectacle and tradition.
Dont mess with the boys Spain just dont ;-)
I agree. The point isn't to stick anyones head on a spike. It's to keep them on their toes and ensure the best possible outcome.
The choices we have is a bit like having to eat a shit sandwich but you can choose what type of bread.
But you have done none of what would be required in a debating forum to ".............keep them on their toes and ensure the best possible outcome"
All you have done is run the UK down and spout off a load of utterly negative bollocks that bears little relation to anything going on - you just vent your pre-conceptions to reinforce your prejudices.
Magicpole
Well-Known Member
But you have done none of what would be required in a debating forum to ".............keep them on their toes and ensure the best possible outcome"
All you have done is run the UK down and spout off a load of utterly negative bollocks that bears little relation to anything going on - you just vent your pre-conceptions to reinforce your prejudices.
You're up there with them bollocks too mate. It's just you believe that leaving is good.
I don't.
Let's wait and see. You won't change my mind and vice versa so it's pointless going around in circles.
What would be your ideal deal outcome that is feasible. What circumstances do you expect that will lead us into a better place?
I do find it hard to believe such a skilled negotiator can so easily slip into throwing out "cheap, often childish, one-liners and gifs" to those on the other side."I don't think many voted for your approved negotiating tactic of a scorched earth / jump off a cliff ultimate threat."
Well to make that statement you must not have
a) read what I posted, or if so
b) made any effort to assess it - because no scorched earth in it at all or
c) have not a clue about negotiating - even at the Janet and John level
perhaps all 3
I think I've read enough of your lengthy posts not to need to read them all. "It is only when those cards are played out and they face the reality that not only can the UK walk away - we will and due to a lack of a forward path - stop all contributions with immediate effect. It is likely only at that point that the EU will have to reconsider the range of settlements that it can accommodate - it is called negotiations!!" I don't know what exactly you understand "scorched earth" to mean, but walking away and denying the enemy any resources even if it damages your own land seems pretty close.
You're up there with them bollocks too mate. It's just you believe that leaving is good.
I don't.
Let's wait and see. You won't change my mind and vice versa so it's pointless going around in circles.
What would be your ideal deal outcome that is feasible. What circumstances do you expect that will lead us into a better place?
But then just be honest to yourself and admit that you are simply always going to bang on in negative fashion whether of not there is any evidence of a reason to. You just want to slag the UK off with regard to Brexit and hope for things to go badly.
it is OK, we have seen through so many posts that this is your position.
Just that when you post things like:
"I agree. The point isn't to stick anyone's head on a spike. It's to keep them on their toes and ensure the best possible outcome."
You are suggesting that there is more to your posting than continuous slagging off of the UK with regard to Brexit - as if there is some structure and purpose to your style
That is simply a shallow attempt to provide some substance or justification for continuous venting
I do find it hard to believe such a skilled negotiator can so easily slip into throwing out "cheap, often childish, one-liners and gifs" to those on the other side.
I think I've read enough of your lengthy posts not to need to read them all. "It is only when those cards are played out and they face the reality that not only can the UK walk away - we will and due to a lack of a forward path - stop all contributions with immediate effect. It is likely only at that point that the EU will have to reconsider the range of settlements that it can accommodate - it is called negotiations!!" I don't know what exactly you understand "scorched earth" to mean, but walking away and denying the enemy any resources even if it damages your own land seems pretty close.
Wow - did you actually read that before pressing send?
I will let you think about just out silly it is and of itself undermines the point you are struggling to make - think about it in a Janet and John manner and it might come to you
BTW, I am not negotiating with you or any other party on this thread
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sir baconface
Well-Known Member
If it helps the debate mine is fairly normal in size and girth although these days as the years advance I find myself having to take a 2 or 3 day 'run up' if I need to use it in anger.
Its when you say to the wife its armed and ready and she just cant be arsed to key the fucking launch code in!
Haha lads. EU Army grade weapons by the sound of things. ;)
Len Rum
Well-Known Member
Meanwhile in other Brexit news, Sky are reporting on their website ( in an article on Gibraltar ) that May the Remainer has agreed with the EU council view that the final deal will take place under Article 218 (when Britain has left the EU and is a third party country) and not under Article 50.
This is an acknowledgement that a deal will not be concluded in two years.
Interesting, very interesting Jeff.
This is an acknowledgement that a deal will not be concluded in two years.
Interesting, very interesting Jeff.
Your issue is that you dont support them full stop. Nothing they have done or will do is good enough for you because you just dont want it. You are approaching the next 2/3 years with closed ears, eyes and mind.
At what point do you as a citizen of the UK say right, time to get behind them and get the best deal for Great Britain?
I think the best deal for Great Britain would be a "Norway" type deal, so I'll get behind them when they go for that.
I think the best deal for Great Britain would be a "Norway" type deal, so I'll get behind them when they go for that.
Won't happen because free movement of people will have to occur.
We voted to come completely out of everything EU related, not a half in/half out job.
The perfect fumble
Well-Known Member
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If you want to give up the will to live then read this...
Now Labour must heal the wounds of Brexit – and salvage a fairer future
https://www.theguardian.com/comment...heal-wounds-of-brexit-ed-miliband-hilary-benn
The only thing to commend this tosh is this post in the comments section....
The referendum posed a stupid question “Do you wish to leave the EU?” – stupid because, wrapped up in that ostensibly simple formula, there were a whole host of nuanced propositions, the response to which depended on the level of knowledge, understanding and concern that few in this country have. Individual voters, forced to answer with a single cross, had to make a subjective guess as to what the question meant when the only intelligent response to the question was “what do you mean by leave the EU?” but there was no box for that. The “debate” that preceded the vote, so far from clarifying what the question was meant to mean became a circus of lies, distortions, prevarications and misrepresentations aimed at polarising and weaponising people’s legitimate but mostly unfocused concerns.
This very article acknowledges that when you say –
“We heard repeatedly from people who voted Leave because of a deep sense that the country wasn’t working for them, and that politics hadn’t been providing good enough answers for a long time.”
In short, to many, it was a protest vote aimed mostly at the wrong target. They had been blatantly lied to for years, the EU used as a scapegoat for UK politicians’ feckless incompetence, their frustration – properly belonging at Westminster’s door - used against them by a corrupt and owned media and a handful of morally bankrupt carpetbaggers.
This stupid question thus received an answer so objectively incoherent that it could only be of value to those who wished to use it disreputably to justify their vested interests. To paraphrase Humpty Dumpty, the result meant what they wanted it to mean, neither more nor less. The question was who was to be master. And the only answer of which we could be sure was it wasn’t us, the poor hapless citizens of the UK. We’re just the cannon-fodder.
It is understandable why the dishonest, the disreputable and the dysfunctional on the right of our politics made the result mean what they wanted it to mean. It is beyond understanding why Labour MPs – people like you who, from your lofty heights, prattle condescendingly about listening to the people and being their protector - were so determined to go along with their abuse of the democratic ideal and process. As MPs, you were duty bound to serve the national interest. Each of you. Yet under the command of a leader whose authority you do not even respect, you set aside your duty to the nation, set aside your judgment, set aside your consciences and walked again and again into the lobby with the Tories knowing that you were indulging in a fraud on reason and democracy. It is beyond understanding. It is beyond decency.
Maybe when you have found the decency to apologise and atone, I will be able to recover some respect for you and your party. Given the self-regarding arrogance of this article, I am not expecting any time soon. You, each of you, sold this country out. You sold our children out. And with it you gave up your right to be listened to as you now purr your weasel words of reconciliation. Appease your own consciences if you can. You have lost my trust. You have lost my respect. I cannot and will not hear you lecture me on how to heal the body that you so cynically helped to mug.
..........................
That is why remainers remain remainers.
Now Labour must heal the wounds of Brexit – and salvage a fairer future
https://www.theguardian.com/comment...heal-wounds-of-brexit-ed-miliband-hilary-benn
The only thing to commend this tosh is this post in the comments section....
- “All of us who care about a progressive future for Britain must not let the future be decided between the right and extreme right.”
The referendum posed a stupid question “Do you wish to leave the EU?” – stupid because, wrapped up in that ostensibly simple formula, there were a whole host of nuanced propositions, the response to which depended on the level of knowledge, understanding and concern that few in this country have. Individual voters, forced to answer with a single cross, had to make a subjective guess as to what the question meant when the only intelligent response to the question was “what do you mean by leave the EU?” but there was no box for that. The “debate” that preceded the vote, so far from clarifying what the question was meant to mean became a circus of lies, distortions, prevarications and misrepresentations aimed at polarising and weaponising people’s legitimate but mostly unfocused concerns.
This very article acknowledges that when you say –
“We heard repeatedly from people who voted Leave because of a deep sense that the country wasn’t working for them, and that politics hadn’t been providing good enough answers for a long time.”
In short, to many, it was a protest vote aimed mostly at the wrong target. They had been blatantly lied to for years, the EU used as a scapegoat for UK politicians’ feckless incompetence, their frustration – properly belonging at Westminster’s door - used against them by a corrupt and owned media and a handful of morally bankrupt carpetbaggers.
This stupid question thus received an answer so objectively incoherent that it could only be of value to those who wished to use it disreputably to justify their vested interests. To paraphrase Humpty Dumpty, the result meant what they wanted it to mean, neither more nor less. The question was who was to be master. And the only answer of which we could be sure was it wasn’t us, the poor hapless citizens of the UK. We’re just the cannon-fodder.
It is understandable why the dishonest, the disreputable and the dysfunctional on the right of our politics made the result mean what they wanted it to mean. It is beyond understanding why Labour MPs – people like you who, from your lofty heights, prattle condescendingly about listening to the people and being their protector - were so determined to go along with their abuse of the democratic ideal and process. As MPs, you were duty bound to serve the national interest. Each of you. Yet under the command of a leader whose authority you do not even respect, you set aside your duty to the nation, set aside your judgment, set aside your consciences and walked again and again into the lobby with the Tories knowing that you were indulging in a fraud on reason and democracy. It is beyond understanding. It is beyond decency.
Maybe when you have found the decency to apologise and atone, I will be able to recover some respect for you and your party. Given the self-regarding arrogance of this article, I am not expecting any time soon. You, each of you, sold this country out. You sold our children out. And with it you gave up your right to be listened to as you now purr your weasel words of reconciliation. Appease your own consciences if you can. You have lost my trust. You have lost my respect. I cannot and will not hear you lecture me on how to heal the body that you so cynically helped to mug.
..........................
That is why remainers remain remainers.
smudgedj
Well-Known Member
If you want to give up the will to live then read this...
Now Labour must heal the wounds of Brexit – and salvage a fairer future
https://www.theguardian.com/comment...heal-wounds-of-brexit-ed-miliband-hilary-benn
The only thing to commend this tosh is this post in the comments section....
And yet that is precisely what you did.
- “All of us who care about a progressive future for Britain must not let the future be decided between the right and extreme right.”
The referendum posed a stupid question “Do you wish to leave the EU?” – stupid because, wrapped up in that ostensibly simple formula, there were a whole host of nuanced propositions, the response to which depended on the level of knowledge, understanding and concern that few in this country have. Individual voters, forced to answer with a single cross, had to make a subjective guess as to what the question meant when the only intelligent response to the question was “what do you mean by leave the EU?” but there was no box for that. The “debate” that preceded the vote, so far from clarifying what the question was meant to mean became a circus of lies, distortions, prevarications and misrepresentations aimed at polarising and weaponising people’s legitimate but mostly unfocused concerns.
This very article acknowledges that when you say –
“We heard repeatedly from people who voted Leave because of a deep sense that the country wasn’t working for them, and that politics hadn’t been providing good enough answers for a long time.”
In short, to many, it was a protest vote aimed mostly at the wrong target. They had been blatantly lied to for years, the EU used as a scapegoat for UK politicians’ feckless incompetence, their frustration – properly belonging at Westminster’s door - used against them by a corrupt and owned media and a handful of morally bankrupt carpetbaggers.
This stupid question thus received an answer so objectively incoherent that it could only be of value to those who wished to use it disreputably to justify their vested interests. To paraphrase Humpty Dumpty, the result meant what they wanted it to mean, neither more nor less. The question was who was to be master. And the only answer of which we could be sure was it wasn’t us, the poor hapless citizens of the UK. We’re just the cannon-fodder.
It is understandable why the dishonest, the disreputable and the dysfunctional on the right of our politics made the result mean what they wanted it to mean. It is beyond understanding why Labour MPs – people like you who, from your lofty heights, prattle condescendingly about listening to the people and being their protector - were so determined to go along with their abuse of the democratic ideal and process. As MPs, you were duty bound to serve the national interest. Each of you. Yet under the command of a leader whose authority you do not even respect, you set aside your duty to the nation, set aside your judgment, set aside your consciences and walked again and again into the lobby with the Tories knowing that you were indulging in a fraud on reason and democracy. It is beyond understanding. It is beyond decency.
Maybe when you have found the decency to apologise and atone, I will be able to recover some respect for you and your party. Given the self-regarding arrogance of this article, I am not expecting any time soon. You, each of you, sold this country out. You sold our children out. And with it you gave up your right to be listened to as you now purr your weasel words of reconciliation. Appease your own consciences if you can. You have lost my trust. You have lost my respect. I cannot and will not hear you lecture me on how to heal the body that you so cynically helped to mug.
..........................
That is why remainers remain remainers.
They are right it was a stupid question. It should have been 'Should Britain be a subordinate to a supreme government for Europe'
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