It's Quiet - a new dawn

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domalino said:
I can't take anyone who actually thinks the defence is shocking seriously. We've conceded 1 more goal than Spurs in the last 10 games, and that includes playing Liverpool and Spurs at home, and Arsenal and Chelsea away, while Spurs have had 1 big game.

Defending is keeping the ball out of the net, and since the halfway point of the season, we've done that better than everyone except United, who are so defensive they can't buy a goal.


If we kept the same backline of Caballero, Clichy, Kolarov, Stones and Navas, playing as they have been for the last 3 months, but our forwards put away their chances, we'd win the league next year. The inevitable improvements in personnel over the summer will just be a bonus.
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I think most people's gripes are not from the amount of goals conceded but instead HOW the goals were conceded. A lot of the goals we conceded happened not because the attackers were good but because our defense was being stupid. Even though in the end it doesn't matter how it happened, only that it did. Truth be told I think the way Pep set our defense up is correct, but individual mistakes (EHM CLICHY) became our undoing.
 
simon23 said:
there is another way to look at this .

WHEN we have to defend we are shit....we don't have to do it a lot cause of the amount of possession that we have....but when we are called to defend it is atrocious and that is a fact. Pep has said it himself....the opposition only need one chance to score and they do, we need to be better in both boxes...constant comments from the manager.....when are defenders and keeper (and in particular bravo) are called into action they fail....Bravo had one shot to stop vs hull......and failed!

Stats don't always tell you the whole picture.

This is why Pep is so obsessed with possession (and rightly so) as when we have the ball the opposition cant score but as soon as they do we are extremely easy to create chances and to score against. Imagine if that weren't the case and that we actually had a keeper and a back of that when we aren't in possession they could actually do their jobs.
The danger is that against the best teams we wont always have the amount of possession so against some teams (and usually in the most important games) we will give away goals and against the likes of chelski that is a recipe of disaster as they can defend

Our defence is shocking ad the goal keeper situation (although Willy has done ok) needs to be rectified. Bravo needs to go end of.
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I hate the "stats don't tell us the whole picture" line. Why? It implies that other modes tell us a better picture. They often don't. Stats gives us the best unbiased and unvarnished picture over s long period. Especially well curated stats.

By the way, you have lumped goalkeeping with defending, but if you separate them, you'll see the defense actually holds up pretty convincingly. Generally better than Chelsea. And outside of tackling, which probably is slanted by Kante's 69 tackles, we are better than they are or on par on practically everything else: Interceptions, blocks, clearance, chance conceded, errors, air duels etc. Our only weakness compared to theirs is shots saved per goals conceded.

Meaning, their keeper makes up the difference.
 
domalino said:
@Dax777

https://www.feyenoord.nl/nieuws/nieuwsoverzicht/karsdorp-tot-2021-verbonden-aan-feyenoord
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Fuk!! There goes my first choice RB :( So what's the fallback option? The Monaco guy? :(

We can still go for Perreira. I think he is currently injured or just got back or Tolisso. Perhaps Henrichs (Tugay, I can't spell his name right to save my life). Semedo maybe. Urhh, not happy with this development.

There are a few good options, but when I thought of who we should get at fullback. 2 things high on my list were possession skills and aggression. Karsdorp and Hernandez showed some of th most aggression of the good possession fullbacks.

Oh well back to the drawing board.
 
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simon23 said:
if the opposition score consistently from the only chance they have (or two chances they every have) then there is something wrong with the defenders and goalkeeper when it comes to defending.....we need defenders and gk who are not only good at the build up and maintaining possession but who are also good at the basic art of defending.

I don't disagree on the putting our chances away more bit either but you need to get both right
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There is something wrong with the goalkeeper perhaps. But if the defence keeps the opposition to just 2 or 3 chances a game. Then its playing very well. And possession wise we ate around the same as every other top 6 team I think we and Arsenal are 1 %rage point better than Pool and Chelsea and 2 over United and Spurs. In other words, its not just possession that is causing the lack of opportunities. The other top 6 teams have majority possession too. Yet they give up more shots. But save more.

Statistically, its our goalkeeping that is inferior, not our defending per see.
 
Dax777 said:
I hate the "stats don't tell us the whole picture" line. Why? It implies that other modes tell us a better picture. They often don't. Stats gives us the best unbiased and unvarnished picture over s long period. Especially well curated stats.

By the way, you have lumped goalkeeping with defending, but if you separate them, you'll see the defense actually holds up pretty convincingly. Generally better than Chelsea. And outside of tackling, which probably is slanted by Kante's 69 tackles, we are better than they are or on par on practically everything else: Interceptions, blocks, clearance, chance conceded, errors, air duels etc. Our only weakness compared to theirs is shots saved per goals conceded.

Meaning, their keeper makes up the difference.
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well that was one f the points i was making.....our keeper(s) are pretty damn poor and that putting it mildly.

however what the stats don't show you how easy it is to break on us, how easy it is for opposition to get crosses into our box, how easy it is to get onto the edge of our box and shots away. all you have to do is watch the games to see this. (I'm sure you do see it)
 
mavsmcfc said:
I think most people's gripes are not from the amount of goals conceded but instead HOW the goals were conceded. A lot of the goals we conceded happened not because the attackers were good but because our defense was being stupid. Even though in the end it doesn't matter how it happened, only that it did. Truth be told I think the way Pep set our defense up is correct, but individual mistakes (EHM CLICHY) became our undoing.
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yup
 
Dax777 said:
I hate the "stats don't tell us the whole picture" line. Why? It implies that other modes tell us a better picture
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No, it just implies that statistics don't tell us the whole picture and that's because they don't.

Stats are a brilliant tool when applied correctly. Unfortunately, they often aren't and we end up with people who don't watch a player but think they know all there is about him because they have a scroll through their profile on whoscored.

Overemphasis on the importance of statistical analysis is partly why (amongst a myriad of other reasons) sites such as r/soccer are borderline unusable for me. You're more likely to find a full blown argument about sample sizes than about football itself.

As I said, they're a useful resource but they most certainly don't tell the whole picture.
 
Dax777 said:
There is something wrong with the goalkeeper perhaps. But if the defence keeps the opposition to just 2 or 3 chances a game. Then its playing very well. And possession wise we ate around the same as every other top 6 team I think we and Arsenal are 1 %rage point better than Pool and Chelsea and 2 over United and Spurs. In other words, its not just possession that is causing the lack of opportunities. The other top 6 teams have majority possession too. Yet they give up more shots. But save more.

Statistically, its our goalkeeping that is inferior, not our defending per see.
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the 2-3 chances a game are down to peps philosophy of keeping possession which i grant our defenders are a big part of and something which is very positive.

But when we DONT have possession (even for small % of a game) then our defenders are poor and often give away very good chances. They need to be better as individuals (something which Pep has consistently said)...the only ones that are capable at present are Kompany (when fit) and stones is a work in progress but needs to be better.....Ottomendi is sometimes good one vs one.....but his negatives with lapses in concentration, going to ground to easily and over committing, getting caught way out of position are negate this.

Pep requires defenders to be able to defend one on one at times.....only Kompany is anywhere near the level required at this (Stones needs to work on this)

the quality of chances are also different due to this as well....have a look at when we are defending sometimes...lots of space for attacking players, one v one sitations in wide areas on or around the half way line and on the edge of our box all our defenders again struggle in these situations besides Kompany.

Its no secret to many teams that you don't need a lot of possession to beat us...just the the one or two chances that you WILL get.....especially if the opposition scores the first goal....we push even more and then often near the end of the game the opposition will get another one or two very clear caches to finishes us off.
 
simon23 said:
the 2-3 chances a game are down to peps philosophy of keeping possession which i grant our defenders are a big part of and something which is very positive.

But when we DONT have possession (even for small % of a game) then our defenders are poor and often give away very good chances. They need to be better as individuals (something which Pep has consistently said)...the only ones that are capable at present are Kompany (when fit) and stones is a work in progress but needs to be better.....Ottomendi is sometimes good one vs one.....but his negatives with lapses in concentration, going to ground to easily and over committing, getting caught way out of position are negate this.

Pep requires defenders to be able to defend one on one at times.....only Kompany is anywhere near the level required at this (Stones needs to work on this)

the quality of chances are also different due to this as well....have a look at when we are defending sometimes...lots of space for attacking players, one v one sitations in wide areas on or around the half way line and on the edge of our box all our defenders again struggle in these situations besides Kompany.

Its no secret to many teams that you don't need a lot of possession to beat us...just the the one or two chances that you WILL get.....especially if the opposition scores the first goal....we push even more and then often near the end of the game the opposition will get another one or two very clear caches to finishes us off.
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Dax777 literally just explained to you how we have the same possession as the other top 4 teams but concede far fewer shots, so to reply to that comment saying "yes but we concede less shots because of higher possession"....no.
 
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