Article 50/Brexit Negotiations

[hilts]

You didn't have to wait thirty years to find out what went on in 1971. The referendum in 1975 was keenly fought, this speech by Peter Shore in a debate with Edward Heath pulled no punches, he openly accused Heath of bypassing Parliament and the people, cheered on by Barbara Castle....



And in the days when people watched TV not only for entertainment but enlightenment there were hour long programmes like this...



I was eighteen at the time, I remember much of the debate centred around Heath's duplicity, how he tricked us in to the Common Market, he was out of power in 1975 having gambled everything over the first miners strike, even by the gentler standards of 1975 Heath had no hiding place.

But the debate didn't end even after the referendum, Powell and other wouldn't let it go....



The only parallels between 1975 and now is that Shore, Benn, Barbara Castle, Powell et al lost the argument and the referendum. Forty years later the Brexiters lost the argument as well, but unlike 1975 they went on to win the referendum (much to their surprise).

Yeah, yeah, yeah....Same old didn't win the argument bollocks! remainers lost, leavers won, get with the programme! Question is, what programme is that?

Page after page we get the usual from you and other leavers about remoaners and their dystopian predictions, how we should get on board blah, blah, blah! But get on board what? No leaver in here or anywhere else for that matter has the faintest idea where we're going with this, you are united only in what you don't want. But a plan? A vision of where we'll be in ten, twenty years? There's nothing but empty words and slogans. You don't even know what would constitute a good Brexit deal, that's why despite saying you'd respond to Len Rum's predictions you never do.

In 1975 Shore and the other leavers were in a similar predicament to the Brexiters today, they knew what they didn't want but they were unable to paint a compelling picture of what they wanted, except a return to the status quo, which wasn't a particularly exciting prospect, they lost so never ended up where you are now. You won so now we are in the worst place imaginable, leaving the EU somehow, sometime, on terms unknown, to a destination that's anyone's guess.

Maybe for you leaving is simply enough, but even you must be aware that's not a compelling narrative to convince those that wanted to stay, yet still you demand their unquestioning allegiance! Do you still not understand why remainers have difficulty rallying round that?

What makes you think we even care what the remainers want? Some are bored with them others entertained with their hysteria and pain. In the real world outside the media obsession and bluemoon mardathon most people just carry on. I know a few people who voted remain and none of them have jumped off a cliff yet. in fact nobody I know even mentions it. It's a bit like the royal family always in the papers or on the news but normal folk have much more important things to worry about.

 

[Tim of the Oak]

What makes you think we even care what the remainers want? Some are bored with them others entertained with their hysteria and pain. In the real world outside the media obsession and bluemoon mardathon most people just carry on. I know a few people who voted remain and none of them have jumped off a cliff yet. in fact nobody I know even mentions it. It's a bit like the royal family always in the papers or on the news but normal folk have much more important things to worry about.

Mainly true but people have been mugged off on both sides of the debate. There are far bigger issues like Trum and North Korea and the FA Cup Semi Final.

Had to laugh at the Government proposing free movement to anyone who will make a coffee or pull a pint. What a victory!!!

 

[stonerblue]

They are indeed. Many people who were stern remainers are now embracing Brexit and are wanting to make the best out of it. I know several people I completely disagreed with who are now trying to be positive and believe we should look to make a good go of it.

But continue to wallow in negativity, that will surely help.

What the fuck are you on about? How is my post 'wallowing in negativity?
One look at this thread will tell you that we are not 'coming together' as a nation in the slightest despite the twaddle that May gives us in that paragraph.
And how, exactly, would you like me to 'embrace brexit'?

 

[The Light Was Yellow Sir]

Mainly true but people have been mugged off on both sides of the debate. There are far bigger issues like Trum and North Korea and the FA Cup Semi Final.

Had to laugh at the Government proposing free movement to anyone who will make a coffee or pull a pint. What a victory!!!

In the end it'll be like downgrading from platinum to gold. We'll pay a bit less and we will get a bit less, but not really notice what bits we aren't getting.

 

[Helmet Cole]

In the end it'll be like downgrading from platinum to gold. We'll pay a bit less and we will get a bit less, but not really notice what bits we aren't getting.

I think you may be correct. Because both sides of the debate are focused on being 'right', the very real possibility of brexit causing next to fuck all to happen is overlooked. If you could avoid the news for a few years I suspect changes to your life due to brexit will be minimal, and not a single fuck would be given

 

[Tim of the Oak]

In the end it'll be like downgrading from platinum to gold. We'll pay a bit less and we will get a bit less, but not really notice what bits we aren't getting.

Spot on

 

[Ban-jani]

What the fuck are you on about? How is my post 'wallowing in negativity?
One look at this thread will tell you that we are not 'coming together' as a nation in the slightest despite the twaddle that May gives us in that paragraph.
And how, exactly, would you like me to 'embrace brexit'?

There's less than 5 people constantly moaning because they've not got their own way; on the entire forum. Most people are getting on with it and 9/10 people I work with or I know outside of work who voted remain are being positive saying it's a good opportunity now.

But unfortunately there's some people that will continuously bash the government and PM no matter what they do. There's always a positive Easter message that comes out of the government, try not to get so upset about it.

You might be dragging your heels but there's plenty of people who are being positive, a great example is my ex housemate who never shut up about voting remain, he's saying there could be some good that comes out of it now.

If the entire country doesn't pull itself together things will be bad but fortunately it's a childish minority.

 

[mcfc1632]

You didn't have to wait thirty years to find out what went on in 1971. The referendum in 1975 was keenly fought, this speech by Peter Shore in a debate with Edward Heath pulled no punches, he openly accused Heath of bypassing Parliament and the people in 1971, cheered on by Barbara Castle....



And in the days when people watched TV not only for entertainment but enlightenment there were hour long programmes like this...



I was eighteen at the time, I remember much of the debate centred around Heath's duplicity, how he tricked us in to the Common Market, he was out of power in 1975 having gambled everything over the first miners strike, even by the gentler standards of 1975 Heath had no hiding place.

But the debate didn't end even after the referendum, Powell and other wouldn't let it go....



The only parallels between 1975 and now is that Shore, Benn, Barbara Castle, Powell et al lost the argument and the referendum. Forty years later the Brexiters lost the argument as well, but unlike 1975 they went on to win the referendum (much to their surprise).

Yeah, yeah, yeah....Same old didn't win the argument bollocks! remainers lost, leavers won, get with the programme! Question is, what programme is that?

Page after page we get the usual from you and other leavers about remoaners and their dystopian predictions, how we should get on board blah, blah, blah! But get on board what? No leaver in here or anywhere else for that matter has the faintest idea where we're going with this, you are united only in what you don't want. But a plan? A vision of where we'll be in ten, twenty years? There's nothing but empty words and slogans. You don't even know what would constitute a good Brexit deal, that's why despite saying you'd respond to Len Rum's predictions you never do.

In 1975 Shore and the other leavers were in a similar predicament to Brexiters, they knew what they didn't want but they were unable to paint a compelling picture of what they wanted, except a return to the status quo, which wasn't a particularly exciting prospect, they lost so never ended up where you are now. You won so now we are in the worst place imaginable, leaving the EU somehow, sometime, on terms unknown, to a destination that's anyone's guess.

Maybe for you leaving is simply enough, but even you must be aware that's not a compelling narrative to convince those that wanted to stay, yet still you demand their unquestioning allegiance! Do you still not understand why remainers have difficulty rallying round that?

Actually, although you posted this in response to my post and totally missed the main points of my post, it is indeed helpful.

I would commend all on here to listen to the last 5mins of Shore's speech - some uncanny echoes of how the government set out false stats in 1971 that were then blown away my the reality of the following years and then when it comes to the period leading up to the referendum how the government engaged in what Shore calls 'Project Fear'. He comments well on the controls that were given away and the manner in which regulations were/are designed to support the production of Germany and France to the detriment of the UK.

I enjoyed the whole speech but especially those last 5mins - meanwhile Heath, aided and abetted by a number of sycophants engaged in lying to and misleading the population - the whole EU project has clearly been a deception and fraud from the outset.

Fumble you mentioned:

"The only parallels between 1975 and now is that Shore, Benn, Barbara Castle, Powell et al lost the argument and the referendum. Forty years later the Brexiters lost the argument as well, but unlike 1975 they went on to win the referendum (much to their surprise)."

I would challenge that this shows that there are some clearer parallels between 1975 and now than you were suggesting. The big difference IMO is that the lies of the government of the day in 1975 were able to dupe the population. Their version of Project Fear was able to be more successful than the 2016 model because the UK electorate did not have 40+ years of direct experience of the abuse of the UK by the EU.

Makes me wonder why, apart from Ken, the supposedly hard-left Remain champions have not provided any answer to this question that was posed?

Good set of posts those and whilst I do not share the full sentiments I can appreciate them.

There is an interesting logic to pursue though - if, how Fumble sets it out, is correct from the left perspective then they should be supporting Brexit surely?

It would be the best way of realising that future. It will never happen whilst in the EU and if the Tories fail post Brexit then the left can step in with a freedom to pursue this path.

 

[The perfect fumble]

Actually, although you posted this in response to my post and totally missed the main points of my post, it is indeed helpful.

I would commend all on here to listen to the last 5mins of Shore's speech - some uncanny echoes of how the government set out false stats in 1971 that were then blown away my the reality of the following years and then when it comes to the period leading up to the referendum how the government engaged in what Shore calls 'Project Fear'. He comments well on the controls that were given away and the manner in which regulations were/are designed to support the production of Germany and France to the detriment of the UK.

I enjoyed the whole speech but especially those last 5mins - meanwhile Heath, aided and abetted by a number of sycophants engaged in lying to and misleading the population - the whole EU project has clearly been a deception and fraud from the outset.

Makes me wonder why, apart from Ken, the supposedly hard-left Remain champions have not provided any answer to this question that was posed?

Carry on golfing.

You'll be pleased to know that you can devote even more time to being a club house bore. Your vacuous obfuscation has won the day! From now on I'll not be responding to the voices in your head and you can continue unimpeded to post your meandering rubbish to your ever dwindling fan club.

 

[Len Rum]

In the end it'll be like downgrading from platinum to gold. We'll pay a bit less and we will get a bit less, but not really notice what bits we aren't getting.

Why are we leaving then?

 

[mcfc1632]

Carry on golfing.

You'll be pleased to know that you can devote even more time to being a club house bore. Your vacuous obfuscation has won the day! From now on I'll not be responding to the voices in your head and you can continue unimpeded to post your meandering rubbish to your ever dwindling fan club.

Ha Ha - the refuge of people that cannot carry a debate. Unlike you, I will be willing to answer difficult questions - because I am able to. I suspect that unlike Ken, you were unable to answer that question with any substance.

I will just have to try and get over the feeling of loss that not receiving your 'content' will undoubtedly cause.

 

[The perfect fumble]

Ha Ha - the refuge of people that cannot carry a debate. Unlike you, I will be willing to answer difficult questions - because I am able to. I suspect that unlike Ken, you were unable to answer that question with any substance.


I will just have to try and get over the feeling of loss that your not receiving your 'content' will undoubtedly cause.

Of course.

Fumble, I decline to break your post down and respond to it section by section. The reason being that what would be in it for me?

I will get around to replying to this - unfortunately not got time to do so at the moment.

 

[mcfc1632]

Of course.

Ha Ha - but Fumble, I will answer Len's post - because I can - good grief it is not that difficult.

You on the other hand seem to have a problem explaining the inconsistency with your craving for a 'left-wing model' and opposition to leaving the EU.

Perhaps you should have cut and paste Ken's answer.

 

[Len Rum]

There's less than 5 people constantly moaning because they've not got their own way; on the entire forum. Most people are getting on with it and 9/10 people I work with or I know outside of work who voted remain are being positive saying it's a good opportunity now.

But unfortunately there's some people that will continuously bash the government and PM no matter what they do. There's always a positive Easter message that comes out of the government, try not to get so upset about it.

You might be dragging your heels but there's plenty of people who are being positive, a great example is my ex housemate who never shut up about voting remain, he's saying there could be some good that comes out of it now.

If the entire country doesn't pull itself together things will be bad but fortunately it's a childish minority.

You seem like an intelligent young person.
Perhaps you could respond to the Len Rum open invitation to Brexiters to be a little more specific about what they want from the final settlement with the EU , do you have any 'red lines' that should not be crossed, what if the Govt. did cross them, would you protest/object and would that be a dereliction of your patriotic duty?
Answers on a post card please to:
Len Rum
Lounge and bar
The non conformist society
Neasden

Copy to mcfc1632.

 

[The perfect fumble]

Ha Ha - but Fumble, I will answer Len's post - because I can - good grief it is not that difficult.

Then do it you pompous windbag.

 

[The perfect fumble]

Christ on a bike!

 

[i kne albert davy]

Christ on a bike!

Too be honest that guy does look like he needs somebody to do everything for him, can well understand him being upset.

 

[Helmet Cole]

Christ on a bike!

Thanks for another twitter quote Mr fumble. Its no surprise at all that 'barrista visas' are being mooted. A large part of the much quoted London remain vote was because the nice middle class folk of our capital enjoy unfettered access to eastern European slave labour to cook, clean, and otherwise serve them.
Of course I may be being really cynical and rich Londoners are so outward looking and cosmopolitan that they simply enjoy a diverse workforce?

 

[The perfect fumble]

Too be honest that guy does look like he needs somebody to do everything for him, can well understand him being upset.

Do you ever post to the point? What is with you guys? The hospitality industry is notorious for low pay because it's low skilled and gets away with paying low wages because it has an ocean of immigrants to choose from, same in agriculture and in the building industry. This ocean of immigrants was the reason so many voted leave because there is a mountain of evidence to suggest that immigrant labour drives down wages for those Brits at the bottom of the wrung. Brexit promised an end to this cycle, a points based system which would free up the low skilled jobs for low skilled Brits and would have an upward pull on wages.

Your reply is to disparage the appearance of the guy who tweeted it.

Grow up.

 

[The perfect fumble]

Thanks for another twitter quote Mr fumble. Its no surprise at all that 'barrista visas' are being mooted. A large part of the much quoted London remain vote was because the nice middle class folk of our capital enjoy unfettered access to eastern European slave labour to cook, clean, and otherwise serve them.
Of course I may be being really cynical and rich Londoners are so outward looking and cosmopolitan that they simply enjoy a diverse workforce?

Twist and turn, twist and turn, you're having your win pissed on and so you have a swipe at the metropolitan elite. I could have posted the link from the Guardian, the Sun, The New Statesman or any number of other sites, your response would have been the same.

When this government does the same for agriculture and the building industry might we expect some pithy comment about "get orf my land" or builders bum? I can't wait.