General Election June 8th

Who will you vote for at the General Election?

  • Conservatives

    Votes: 189 28.8%
  • Labour

    Votes: 366 55.8%
  • Liberal Democrats

    Votes: 37 5.6%
  • SNP

    Votes: 8 1.2%
  • UKIP

    Votes: 23 3.5%
  • Other

    Votes: 33 5.0%

  • Total voters
    656
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And yet countries like France and Germany are run on similar lines to this labour manifesto and seem to be doing far better than the UK ?

Are you sure?

Germany is not a socialist country and they have many policies in place which helps to maintain their strong industrial sector. Labour have said nothing about what they will do for our businesses beyond clobbering them to death.
 
France doing better than we are in what unemployment rates higher less growth so how are they doing better ?
And yet countries like France and Germany are run on similar lines to this labour manifesto and seem to be doing far better than the UK ?
 
Are you sure?

Germany is not a socialist country and they have many policies in place which helps to maintain their strong industrial sector. Labour have said nothing about what they will do for our businesses beyond clobbering them to death.
Not entirely, yet the German economy is strong because they invested in their industry instead of selling it off , and industry that is still dominated by unions and they pay far better wages than we can with a similar cost of living? They may not be socialist but offer socialist ideals whilst the business sector still thrives better than ours.
 
Farron is not Corbyn. I'm fairly certain of that.

It appears that you believe that all Remain voters will work to undermine the referendum decision.

Your comment was:
"So how can you say the Tories will get a 'worse' deal over Brexit and not say the same for Labour if you accept neither party can guarentee anything?

The point of the matter is people trust the Conservatives to get them the Brexit they, the voters want not the Brexit the Labour Party wants."


No reference there to Leave/Remain voters, just "people/voters" not wanting what the Labour Party wants. Everyone?


That wasn't my comment it was a comment from another poster and my reference to Farron was my reference to Farron not Corbyn.

Serious question, if remain had won the vote would the remain camp and the establishment have given those wanting to leave the time of day?
 
Last part - yes. The tone and therefore the later agreements will change though. This was exactly my point.
And oh, I'm sorry, 16M, not 17M who can be disregarded then, in the context of what was replied to.
No, not disregarded, but they cannot think that their concerns are anymore valid or hold more importance than those who voted differently, which some in the Labour party and especially Lib Dems seem to think so. They're only seeing it from the pro-EU side of things and completely disregard the view of those who wanted to leave. It's not a vote winner, hence why on this issue at least, Labour is haemorhagging support and the Lib Dems are completely deluded.
 
Farron is not Corbyn. I'm fairly certain of that.

It appears that you believe that all Remain voters will work to undermine the referendum decision.

Your comment was:
"So how can you say the Tories will get a 'worse' deal over Brexit and not say the same for Labour if you accept neither party can guarentee anything?

The point of the matter is people trust the Conservatives to get them the Brexit they, the voters want not the Brexit the Labour Party wants."


No reference there to Leave/Remain voters, just "people/voters" not wanting what the Labour Party wants. Everyone?
Wrong poster.

Thats because, since Article 50 has been invoked and the decision to leave the EU has been given Royal Assent, we are ALL technically "leave" voters now, just that some more emphatic about the result than others, for obvious reasons. There's no point referring to 'remain' voters as 'remain voters' anymore, only as a point of reference to those who still have doubts about the discussions. To a remainer, the 'best deal' is staying in the EU. That reality is no longer possible, so the decision to vote Conservative to get the "best Brexit deal" is one that closely resembles the decision people took last year. If at the voting booth people don't want to turn their backs on Europe completely, the results will reflect the national interest.

People already know going in the stances of both parties on the issue. One will be rejected, one supported. I don't predict those who voted remain want to undermine the A50 process, it's the Pro-EU types like Farron, Thornberry, Lammy and Cooper who reject the result and want to overturn the process whose views I 'disregard' as I find them detrimental to the process.

Also, regarding the bold statement, stop making assumptions about what I think. "It appears you believe...". No, I don't think that at all, it's your assumption and it doesn't help the debate either talking about it. It just derails into ad hominem attacks and turns into petty spats. I don't 'hate' remainers for voting the way they did or for not being happy about the result. I simply don't respect those who refuse to accept the result yet expected us to do so and have invented the concepts of hard and soft options for leaving when none of those were even debated or discussed prior to the vote itself as being options.

There were only two, Leave or Remain; not Leave fully, Leave softly, Remain softly or Remain fully. This election will, partly, seek to eliminate all confusion about it. I don't trust the Labour Party to deliver a 'Leave fully' negotiation that I voted for.
 
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I miss those days that never existed
Except they did and depending how old you are either your parents or grandparents benefitted from them ( ironically most of those same people who reaped the benefits of socialism no longer vote labour? ) it could happen again of course but that would mean a great many not swallowing everything they hear or read in the media .
 
Course
Except they did and depending how old you are either your parents or grandparents benefitted from them ( ironically most of those same people who reaped the benefits of socialism no longer vote labour? ) it could happen again of course but that would mean a great many not swallowing everything they hear or read in the media .

Course they did
 
Except they did and depending how old you are either your parents or grandparents benefitted from them ( ironically most of those same people who reaped the benefits of socialism no longer vote labour? ) it could happen again of course but that would mean a great many not swallowing everything they hear or read in the media .
What are these "benefits of Socialism" you speak of and are they attributed only to the Labour Party?

To help, I am one of these said people who no longer votes Labour and has since come to view "socialism" as ethically unfair to the aims of individualist thinking and personal freedoms of choice and expression.

65187445.jpg
 
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What are these "benefits of Socialism" you speak of?
To help, I am one of these said people who no longer votes Labour and has since come to view "socialism" as ethically unfair to the aims of individualist thinking and personal freedoms of choice and expression.

65187445.jpg
Well for instance decent pensions with jobs,which a great many retired people now live on , 40 hours or less a week , paid holidays ,sick pay etc, etc....all brought about by trade unions in tandem with labour governments - these have all been undone due to 40 years off neo liberalism starting with thatcher and carried on by Blair - do any of you ever read 20th century social history?
 
What are these "benefits of Socialism" you speak of and are they attributed only to the Labour Party?

To help, I am one of these said people who no longer votes Labour and has since come to view "socialism" as ethically unfair to the aims of individualist thinking and personal freedoms of choice and expression.

65187445.jpg
Think you are confusing socialism with communism btw ?
 
That wasn't my comment it was a comment from another poster and my reference to Farron was my reference to Farron not Corbyn.

Serious question, if remain had won the vote would the remain camp and the establishment have given those wanting to leave the time of day?

Gah, wrong poster, sorry. Not sure what I ws trying to do.

last bit - um, not sure that makes any sense. No laws or serious change would be needed, so it wouldn't be as high on the list.
However, if a PM failed to pay attention to the votes of 16M people, (a) they're an idiot and/or David Cameron and (b) they're a bad politician in it for themselves and their own only.
 
No, not disregarded, but they cannot think that their concerns are anymore valid or hold more importance than those who voted differently, which some in the Labour party and especially Lib Dems seem to think so. They're only seeing it from the pro-EU side of things and completely disregard the view of those who wanted to leave. It's not a vote winner, hence why on this issue at least, Labour is haemorhagging support and the Lib Dems are completely deluded.

They should, as you say, be the same importance.

There's quite a large number who think they have no importance, including in this forum. The Labour draft says "accept the referendum" - that's pretty clear. That is all anyone can reliably claim to know about how many people voted for anything. 17M thought Leaving is a good idea. 16M thought it isn't. Any plans made should acknowledge that 33M expressed an opinion, not half of them.
 
No , because it is impossible to say who can ? You can of course believe the people who have been in power for 7 years and delivered little more than slogans - that is entirely your choice of course.

What you can say though - in fact everyone able to think things through can - is that the Labour policy on Brexit announced today offers to the EU a fully open door to make any demands - even extremely crazy ones - before they will discuss a trade deal. Therefore we will not get a trade deal unless we bow down to incredibly / extremely crazy demands - and therefore we will effectively / actually not leave the UK

That is the simple and inescapable fact of the Labour policy

Now of course, as you say there are no guarantees, but fuck me May's team would have to work awfully fucking hard to get as bad a deal as Labour have now exposed the UK to.

We need to be careful not to stray into A50 thread content.
 
There's no a lot of point in subtleties with you, Mr Dacre, is there?
You paint everything as the worst possible option, when there is a whole middle ground.
I tend to deal in facts - It would not take much reasoning for anyone to come to the realization that what I posted is clearly factual - it does take objectivity though.

The possible middle ground that you allude to is, if the Labour policy came to be the UK's policy, wholly handed over to be offered entirely at the EU's discretion and goodwill - entirely on their terms
 
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