General Election June 8th

[bronco]

Article 50 thread is thataway.

There's only one outcome to Brexit; the UK leaving the EU completely. There's no negotiation there.

Don't disagree , what we are discussing is what happens next - which neither party can possibly guarantee at this point?

 

[bronco]

Whilst some of that sounds OK, how the hell is it all going ot be paid for???

Raising Corporation Tax sure as hell won't pay for all of that. In fact, if you raise Corporation Tax by 7% as has ben mooted there's a good chance the overall take will go down as that wil lhit businesses really hard. Closing tax loppholes? Not a chance they will be able to close enough of them to raise that sort of amount of money. Previous governments have all tried and failed to do this.

The reason tax dodging has never been tackled previously is because various governments for the past 4 decades have been in the back pocket of big business - what do you think Corbyn is so reviled by 99% of the media?

 

[Gelsons Dad]

Don't disagree , what we are discussing is what happens next - which neither party can possibly guarantee at this point?

Yes, so for the electorate this is a single issue general election. Who will get the best deal for the UK?

 

[MillionMilesAway]

That's exactly the point. Saying one party can give a 'better deal' is only in the mindset of those who don't want us to leave the EU at all, so there isn't a 'better deal' from either Labour or the Tories since both result in us leaving completely.

Unless they mean renegotiations with trading with the EU which should not be referred to as 'Brexit'.

I disagree with that.
The conditions of leaving concern people (especially Northern Ireland, for example), as the approach taken will likely affect what terms are subsequently agreed.

if Corbyn/May negotiate like silly buggers, it'll annoy the EU and the UK will probably have a harsher Brexit effect.
If Corbyn/May negotiate like realists, I expect that Brexit will not be as harsh in its effect.

It may be closer to Sunday Times Brexit than to Farage Brexit or Daily Express Brexit, but claiming that it's not Brexit is weird.

 

[inbetween]

This is probably the most anti-business manifesto I have ever seen.

Every single line related to business is there to punish and Labour just seems to plan to tie up businesses with increased costs, more taxes and lessen the ability to employ people.

The first line of 'taxation is what underpins our prosperity' sums it up because that statement is flatly wrong. If businesses go bust, don't make profits etc you cannot tax them and given businesses generate over 50% of the countries tax intake it is just utterly suicidal.

Fair taxation is not about punishing the most successful for being successful, fairness is when society is equal and not swayed in favour of one side or another. Labour just want to turn the tide and bring down industry.

They really have not got a hope in hell. Looking at this I would expect an even bigger Tory majority now because this drivel has all but sealed my vote.

 

[Metal Biker]

Don't disagree , what we are discussing is what happens next - which neither party can possibly guarantee at this point?

So how can you say the Tories will get a 'worse' deal over Brexit and not say the same for Labour if you accept neither party can guarentee anything?

The point of the matter is people trust the Conservatives to get them the Brexit they, the voters want not the Brexit the Labour Party wants.

 

[MillionMilesAway]

So how can you say the Tories will get a 'worse' deal over Brexit and not say the same for Labour if you accept neither party can guarentee anything?

The point of the matter is people trust the Conservatives to get them the Brexit they, the voters want not the Brexit the Labour Party wants.

What about the 17M who don't really want to leave?
Do they also want the Conservative version?

 

[mcfc1632]

I disagree with that.
The conditions of leaving concern people (especially Northern Ireland, for example), as the approach taken will likely affect what terms are subsequently agreed.

if Corbyn/May negotiate like silly buggers, it'll annoy the EU and the UK will probably have a harsher Brexit effect.
If Corbyn/May negotiate like realists, I expect that Brexit will not be as harsh in its effect.

It may be closer to Sunday Times Brexit than to Farage Brexit or Daily Express Brexit, but claiming that it's not Brexit is weird.

I think you should visit the A50 thread to discuss this, but:

Your 2 scenarios, as stated, e.g. negotiating like silly buggers or realists, IMO, demonstrates a worrying acceptance that the EU are all-powerful and we must just accept what they demand

The EU's negotiating mandate is one of a total EU Win and the UK get badly punished outcome - why do you think that this should just be accepted by the UK?

The Labour position, as set out in the leaked manifesto, essentially does hand over acceptance to whatever the EU demands and invites them to be as unreasonable as they want - and they will, IMO, be so punishing that we end up effectively or indeed actually staying in

It would be the EU playing sill buggers and the UK, under Labour's position, just bending over

 

[vonkeynotvenky]

What about the 17M who don't really want to leave?
Do they also want the Conservative version?

Remainers don't want to leave the EU that's the point. Dressing up leaving as really not leaving but calling it leaving isn't what we voted for. When you listen to politicians like Farron what he's really saying is let's stay in every mechanism of the EU and try to hoodwink voters into believing he respects the vote.
He quite obviously doesn't.

 

[Metal Biker]

What about the 17M who don't really want to leave?
Do they also want the Conservative version?

Are you just looking for arguments or something? http://forums.bluemoon-mcfc.co.uk/threads/article-50-brexit-negotiations.327393/page-214

16.1m voted to stay, not 17m. 17.4 m voted to leave.
There IS no 'Conservative version' or a 'Lib Dem version' or a 'Labour version' of 'Brexit' (I fucking hate that term).

There is no 'soft brexit' or 'hard brexit'. There's just the UK no longer being a member of the European Union. That was the question put to us. If it had been the other result would there have been renegotiations for 'soft remain' and 'hard remain'? No, so why is there suddenly 'options' regarding the extent to which we leave the EU?

Voting Labour will still result in the UK leaving the EU. Voting Lib Dem will also give the same result, so it doesn't matter about voting Conservative in this election regarding Brexit.

 

[mcfc1632]

What about the 17M who don't really want to leave?
Do they also want the Conservative version?

Then they should all vote accordingly and we will see the outcome.

The 23/06 vote was a Remain or Leave option - this vote is about constituencies. We will see whether the Brexit issue is indeed a dominating factor or whether, as some have suggested today, a side-issue when compared to other key domestic issues by the way the votes and seats go.

 

[TheThirdDeano]

 

[hilts]

With that manifesto Labour have gone full on left wing bat shit crazy

Deluded pillocks

 

[bronco]

Yes, so for the electorate this is a single issue general election. Who will get the best deal for the UK?

No , because it is impossible to say who can ? You can of course believe the people who have been in power for 7 years and delivered little more than slogans - that is entirely your choice of course.

 

[bronco]

This is probably the most anti-business manifesto I have ever seen.

Every single line related to business is there to punish and Labour just seems to plan to tie up businesses with increased costs, more taxes and lessen the ability to employ people.

The first line of 'taxation is what underpins our prosperity' sums it up because that statement is flatly wrong. If businesses go bust, don't make profits etc you cannot tax them and given businesses generate over 50% of the countries tax intake it is just utterly suicidal.

Fair taxation is not about punishing the most successful for being successful, fairness is when society is equal and not swayed in favour of one side or another. Labour just want to turn the tide and bring down industry.

They really have not got a hope in hell. Looking at this I would expect an even bigger Tory majority now because this drivel has all but sealed my vote.

And yet countries like France and Germany are run on similar lines to this labour manifesto and seem to be doing far better than the UK ?

 

[MillionMilesAway]

I think you should visit the A50 thread to discuss this, but:

Your 2 scenarios, as stated, e.g. negotiating like silly buggers or realists, IMO, demonstrates a worrying acceptance that the EU are all-powerful and we must just accept what they demand

The EU's negotiating mandate is one of a total EU Win and the UK get badly punished outcome - why do you think that this should just be accepted by the UK?

The Labour position, as set out in the leaked manifesto, essentially does hand over acceptance to whatever the EU demands and invites them to be as unreasonable as they want - and they will, IMO, be so punishing that we end up effectively or indeed actually staying in

It would be the EU playing sill buggers and the UK, under Labour's position, just bending over

There's no a lot of point in subtleties with you, Mr Dacre, is there?
You paint everything as the worst possible option, when there is a whole middle ground.

 

[bronco]

With that manifesto Labour have gone full on left wing bat shit crazy

Deluded pillocks

Yeah a return to the bad old days of decent paid jobs ,good pensions , affordable housing etc , etc......crazy lefties eh ?

 

[MillionMilesAway]

Remainers don't want to leave the EU that's the point. Dressing up leaving as really not leaving but calling it leaving isn't what we voted for. When you listen to politicians like Farron what he's really saying is let's stay in every mechanism of the EU and try to hoodwink voters into believing he respects the vote.
He quite obviously doesn't.

Farron is not Corbyn. I'm fairly certain of that.

It appears that you believe that all Remain voters will work to undermine the referendum decision.

Your comment was:
"So how can you say the Tories will get a 'worse' deal over Brexit and not say the same for Labour if you accept neither party can guarentee anything?

The point of the matter is people trust the Conservatives to get them the Brexit they, the voters want not the Brexit the Labour Party wants."

No reference there to Leave/Remain voters, just "people/voters" not wanting what the Labour Party wants. Everyone?

 

[MillionMilesAway]

Are you just looking for arguments or something? http://forums.bluemoon-mcfc.co.uk/threads/article-50-brexit-negotiations.327393/page-214

16.1m voted to stay, not 17m. 17.4 m voted to leave.
There IS no 'Conservative version' or a 'Lib Dem version' or a 'Labour version' of 'Brexit' (I fucking hate that term).

There is no 'soft brexit' or 'hard brexit'. There's just the UK no longer being a member of the European Union. That was the question put to us. If it had been the other result would there have been renegotiations for 'soft remain' and 'hard remain'? No, so why is there suddenly 'options' regarding the extent to which we leave the EU?

Voting Labour will still result in the UK leaving the EU. Voting Lib Dem will also give the same result, so it doesn't matter about voting Conservative in this election regarding Brexit.

Last part - yes. The tone and therefore the later agreements will change though. This was exactly my point.
And oh, I'm sorry, 16M, not 17M who can be disregarded then, in the context of what was replied to.

 

[MillionMilesAway]

Then they should all vote accordingly and we will see the outcome.

The 23/06 vote was a Remain or Leave option - this vote is about constituencies. We will see whether the Brexit issue is indeed a dominating factor or whether, as some have suggested today, a side-issue when compared to other key domestic issues by the way the votes and seats go.

Ideally, yes.
however, we don't have an ideal system, and for the Conservatives not to have a 50+ majority would be astonishing - that's not really in doubt.