Islamic Terrorism: is religion/belief no matter how misguided, the main motivator?

Prestwich_Blue said:
This is on the right lines. If you read a book called "The Looming tower: Al Qaeda's Road to 9/11" it tells the history of the development of Islamic fundamentalism & paints a picture of radical Muslim political thinkers who objected to their countries (mainly Egypt at the time) going down the route of Westernisation. They espoused that Muslim majority countries should be run on a religious basis, not as what we consider to be social democracies. Throw the doctrine of Salafism (which is a Sunni ideology) into the mix and their aim is to see countries run on a much more conservative (i.e. strictly interpreted) basis than it would be under Shia or other forms of Islam.

So Iran, which you mention, is sort of a theocracy but it's Shia-dominated rather than Sunni. So the concept of Jihad as it exists among some Salafists isn't a factor in their belief system. They do however project political power to support other Shia's against Sunni oppression. Even among Salafi adherents, the majority don't get involved in politics, some do but don't resort to violence but a minority become jihadists. So you can't even blame Salafi's as a homogeneous group.

Compare that to Christianity, where the majority follow their faith peacefully, some (particularly in the USA) use it to justify their political beliefs and some, like the Westboro Baptist Church, are religious extremists. They're not violent ones but there are people who attack abortion clinics and have even murdered people who work at these clinics in the name of religion. Can we blame Christianity & Christians as a whole for those people? Should all Jews take the blame for the actions of Israel in Gaza or those individuals who kill Arabs? No we can't although that we have to recognise that religion gives them a platform or excuse for the way they formulate their twisted beliefs.

Let's also remember that Islam is only about 1400-1500 years old. Think back to Christianity in the Middle Ages when there were schisms, persecutions of Catholics & Jews, burning of witches and not forgetting the Crusades just a few hundred years earlier. Islam has evolved in an environment unused to democracy and where many of its adherents live in a world that doesn't accept or understand many of its beliefs. Judaism has followed the same path and while many of the most religious literally believe in the Torah and all its associated works, it's sort of come to terms with the modern world. Many of the most religious have as little contact as possible with the outside world, they don't have TV's, radios, the internet or newspapers. Their kids aren't taught in English, mainly study religious texts, do little maths and certainly nothing scientific that might conflict with the word of God, don't learn about other religions or sex education. Religiously they're just as extreme as the Salafis but they don't have a political ideology that drives them to jihad. They believe in the coming of the Messiah and that religious devotion, rather than violence, will hasten that.
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There has been some great posts today amongst the madness, this is one of them.
 
chedlee said:
As has the UK, USA, Russia etc.

Do you have the names of specific terrorist groups they have funded in that time?

Also have any of these groups carried out attributable terrorist acts on what we might describe as western soil (US, Europe) in the way we are seeing them now?
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Hezzbollah, Hamas
 
chedlee said:
As has the UK, USA, Russia etc.

Do you have the names of specific terrorist groups they have funded in that time?

Also have any of these groups carried out attributable terrorist acts on what we might describe as western soil (US, Europe) in the way we are seeing them now?
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Can you give me examples of terrorist the Uk have funded?
 
Brightwells left peg said:
'Enlightenment' and 'Religion' should not be used in the same century, let alone sentence.

To paraphrase

"Evil people will do evil things,
Good people will do good things
Religion makes good people do evil things"

Religion of any form is a net negative on humanity. Sure, it brings some positives, but I believe we'd be a far better world without it.
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Well, yes, you can debate how 'enlightened' those Enlightenments were, and what affect they had. My point was that each religion has had, to some extent, a movement that has shifted it - or at least, people - away from the fundamental doctrines. Some more than others, of course.
 
Feck me there are some sick bastards on here if they think Christianity is a problem.
The 11th Commandment given by Jesus overrides every other statement in the bible.
John 13:34 "34 A new commandment I give to you, that you love one another; as I have loved you, that you also love one another."
Every act done by a Christian should be framed by this. Indeed, as such, the Old Testament is really just background.

Now historically rulers and leaders have abused this fact. But there is NOTHING more important. NOTHING.
 
che_don_john said:
Well, yes, you can debate how 'enlightened' those Enlightenments were, and what affect they had. My point was that each religion has had, to some extent, a movement that has shifted it - or at least, people - away from the fundamental doctrines. Some more than others, of course.
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Cafeteria Christians a case in point. Just like the good bits and cough furiously when the seedier evil and maniacal texts are brought up.
 
CitizenTID said:
On a serious note, I read most of it and found myself questioning the same sort of thing yesterday. People are of course reluctant to address the religion issue directly but when you consider how Judaism, Christianity and Islam evolved (the Abrahamic religions) - Christianity building on Judaism, Islam building on Christianity - it reeks of ancient propaganda. Different peoples within the same region (or the same that separated themselves), wanting to twist and manipulate for their own power grab. There is an inherent selfish nature in many people (but a minority, still an effective one) to vie for power and manipulation of things and others is a basic tactic to do so.

At the same time, banning religion isn't fair as it also helps a much larger number of people deal with things in a moral way.
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Islam does not "build on Christianity". It cherry picks bits and ignores the most important facets of the religion. The two faiths may be waiting for Jesus to return but their concepts of Jesus are totally different.
 
BlueAnorak said:
Feck me there are some sick bastards on here if they think Christianity is a problem.
The 11th Commandment given by Jesus overrides every other statement in the bible.
John 13:34 "34 A new commandment I give to you, that you love one another; as I have loved you, that you also love one another."
Every act done by a Christian should be framed by this. Indeed, as such, the Old Testament is really just background.

Now historically rulers and leaders have abused this fact. But there is NOTHING more important. NOTHING.
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That's funny

You're right of course. We're sick.

The Catholic Church on the other hand has nothing to answer for. They were as Christian as they come the last time I studied religion.

Keep cherry picking the bits of the medieval book/doctrine you like, and ignore the ones you don't. I think that's the 'enlightenment' referred to earlier.
 
BlueAnorak said:
Feck me there are some sick bastards on here if they think Christianity is a problem.
The 11th Commandment given by Jesus overrides every other statement in the bible.
John 13:34 "34 A new commandment I give to you, that you love one another; as I have loved you, that you also love one another."
Every act done by a Christian should be framed by this. Indeed, as such, the Old Testament is really just background.

Now historically rulers and leaders have abused this fact. But there is NOTHING more important. NOTHING.
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Then why does Christianity oppose homosexuality if that is the case?

It is there a sub clause that I missed?

You are doing what is the default pisition, edit and ignore. It's either all truly the word of God, that infallible being. Are you saying he had a reboot? Or it's all made up.

It's all man made. The differences show the different perspectives of men over the centuries, not God. He cannot make mistakes if he existed, which I don't believe he ever has.

Jesus also said I am the only way. If you don't accept me you are going to hell to burn forever.

How does that square will love on any level?
 
Magicpole said:
Can you give me examples of terrorist the Uk have funded?
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That would depend on the definition of terrorist but there is no doubt that the UK has backed regimes around the world that have been responsible for acts of terror. My point was that there is plenty of blood on plenty of hands from various conflicts around the globe where the good guy is difficult to differentiate from the bad one.
 
chedlee said:
That would depend on the definition of terrorist but there is no doubt that the UK has backed regimes around the world that have been responsible for acts of terror. My point was that there is plenty of blood on plenty of hands from various conflicts around the globe where the good guy is difficult to differentiate from the bad one.
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So that's a 'no' then.

The UK Government hasn't willingly financially backed a regime causing 'terrorist atrocities' out of a mutual benefit, has it.
 
chedlee said:
That would depend on the definition of terrorist but there is no doubt that the UK has backed regimes around the world that have been responsible for acts of terror. My point was that there is plenty of blood on plenty of hands from various conflicts around the globe where the good guy is difficult to differentiate from the bad one.
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I wouldn't dispute that.
 
chedlee said:
I hadn't heard that, thought it was Libya.

What were the Hamas/Hezbollah motives for that?
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They attacked the US in Lebanon, 300 marines and took hostages. I think your right that the majority of attacks are from a Sunni source which escalated after the Afghan wars and the first Iraq war were we were seen as crusaders in Muslim lands.
 
Mëtal Bikër said:
So that's a 'no' then.

The UK Government hasn't willingly financially backed a regime causing 'terrorist atrocities' out of a mutual benefit, has it.
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That depends on your definition of 'no' :-)

I think you may be getting a little pedantic. Yes I think it probably has. No I can't give you any specific examples.
 
BlueAnorak said:
Feck me there are some sick bastards on here if they think Christianity is a problem.
The 11th Commandment given by Jesus overrides every other statement in the bible.
John 13:34 "34 A new commandment I give to you, that you love one another; as I have loved you, that you also love one another."
Every act done by a Christian should be framed by this. Indeed, as such, the Old Testament is really just background.

Now historically rulers and leaders have abused this fact. But there is NOTHING more important. NOTHING.
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So-called Christians still abuse this. And your response will be "Ah but they're not really Christians". Not to you or many others they aren't but they certainly see themselves as such. There are people in power here and the USA who apparently believe in God and class themselves as committed Christians yet they have no qualms about bombing people in other countries and they convince themselves and others that they're carrying out the will of God. And that's the problem here.
 
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