Article 50/Brexit Negotiations

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Len Rum said:
Rumours that after the election May is going to appoint someone called Gummer ( son of ex cabinet minister John selwyn Gummer) to Brexit secretary to replace David Davis who will become Foreign Secretary replacing the liability that is Boris Johnson.
This would explain why she didn't parade her Brexit team at the Brexit relaunch and why she never mentions them.
It would also mean she has her puppet appointed as Brexit secretary to do her bidding, because I think David Davis, for all his faults, is his own man.
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That would need some sort of decent majority, I'd have thought, as it would lead to the polar opposite of a 'hard Brexit'. Ben Gummer is down the road in Ipswich and he was an absolutely rabid remainer.
 
vonkeynotvenky said:
Angus Robertson Barry Gardiner, and Nick Clegg all saying in effect ignore the vote of Brexit, with Angus Robertson not quite grasping the idea that it was a UK vote, he even quoted London as an exceptional case to have a 'Special deal' which shows the SNP's decisive nature. Gardiner went so far as to say that Brexit shouldn't be political he's wanting a complete backtrack.
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You've misread Baz Gardiner's comments mate.
He was commenting on 'no deal is better than a bad deal' and he said that in economic terms this was a nonsense, but that the Tories were justifying this statement by factoring in political 'benefits' i.e. no deal would ruin our economy but on the plus side we would be in control of our laws and borders.
 
Len Rum said:
You've misread Baz Gardiner's comments mate.
He was commenting on 'no deal is better than a bad deal' and he said that in economic terms this was a nonsense, but that the Tories were justifying this statement by factoring in political 'benefits' i.e. no deal would ruin our economy but on the plus side we would be in control of our laws and borders.
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As a genuine cross party politician misstruster (Not a real word I know) I saw a panel consisting of one lie after another, neither would deliver anything near what I consider a Brexit and am tired of having the Brexit vote brought down to just chasing the economic pot of gold. There are many many voters who voted mainly with their hearts because in reality they have very little else, successive governments have left working class people disenfranchised poorer and more politically isolated, social mobility for the underclass is just a whisper and a lie in most cases.
When politicians argue like children agree on nothing and constantly try to score cheap points just to gain power or massage their egos floating voters like myself are particular confused by it because we don't know which pot to piss in. I'm not a conservative I'm not a socialist and most definitely I'm no liberal I just vote for whichever party I trust and if you ignore the lies you're just left with an xfactor style of liking politicians more than others it's become so personal.
Reading some of the well intentioned and well informed threads on here is difficult but the reality that the well informed and well intentioned posters probably don't understand is that from what I have read they will never shift their allegiances no matter what the opposition offers or invents as truth, the casual voters only have the opportunity to vote for whoever they think is lying the least. Day on day it's getting more complicated and actually believing (I mean genuinely believing) any of these politicians is becoming more and more difficult, and for those who don't follow party politics or have no badge to wear it's left to sound bites and rumour.
Mate, we're up the proverbial creek without a paddle, the people charged with running this country are little more than either back street radicals or Fox hunting poor haters with an eclectic mix of trough feeders trying to fight for a piece of the pie, but we have no choice there are no morals to set them apart and no clear strategy that doesn't involve uniting this divided country without mentioning capitalism or some socialist Utopia.
I may not have worded this well and I apologise for that mate it's not a political speech deserving of the weight of a feather I am just trying to explain that I believe people want a direction they can trust by people they can trust, the shift from centre politics to shouting left and sneering comfortable right with the abject stupid (Like myself) in the middle is killing the feeling of my input into this country.
 
vonkeynotvenky said:
As a genuine cross party politician misstruster (Not a real word I know) I saw a panel consisting of one lie after another, neither would deliver anything near what I consider a Brexit and am tired of having the Brexit vote brought down to just chasing the economic pot of gold. There are many many voters who voted mainly with their hearts because in reality they have very little else, successive governments have left working class people disenfranchised poorer and more politically isolated, social mobility for the underclass is just a whisper and a lie in most cases.
When politicians argue like children agree on nothing and constantly try to score cheap points just to gain power or massage their egos floating voters like myself are particular confused by it because we don't know which pot to piss in. I'm not a conservative I'm not a socialist and most definitely I'm no liberal I just vote for whichever party I trust and if you ignore the lies you're just left with an xfactor style of liking politicians more than others it's become so personal.
Reading some of the well intentioned and well informed threads on here is difficult but the reality that the well informed and well intentioned posters probably don't understand is that from what I have read they will never shift their allegiances no matter what the opposition offers or invents as truth, the casual voters only have the opportunity to vote for whoever they think is lying the least. Day on day it's getting more complicated and actually believing (I mean genuinely believing) any of these politicians is becoming more and more difficult, and for those who don't follow party politics or have no badge to wear it's left to sound bites and rumour.
Mate, we're up the proverbial creek without a paddle, the people charged with running this country are little more than either back street radicals or Fox hunting poor haters with an eclectic mix of trough feeders trying to fight for a piece of the pie, but we have no choice there are no morals to set them apart and no clear strategy that doesn't involve uniting this divided country without mentioning capitalism or some socialist Utopia.
I may not have worded this well and I apologise for that mate it's not a political speech deserving of the weight of a feather I am just trying to explain that I believe people want a direction they can trust by people they can trust, the shift from centre politics to shouting left and sneering comfortable right with the abject stupid (Like myself) in the middle is killing the feeling of my input into this country.
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Excellent points in that post.
 
Seems May's strategy now boils down to not criticising Trump however outrageous his behaviour on the off chance he'll give us a trade deal. It's pathetic.
 
Maybe I worded it badly or put it in the wrong thread but the point I was trying to make was that May appears to be trying to get a trade deal with the USA at all costs so that it takes the pressure off getting a good deal with the rest of the EU. I think she realises that the concessions she will need to make to get the deal we need will be too much for many to accept so she is putting contingency plans in place for not getting a deal with the EU. Unfortunately this means pandering to Trump which makes her look a bit pathetic.
 
west didsblue said:
Maybe I worded it badly or put it in the wrong thread but the point I was trying to make was that May appears to be trying to get a trade deal with the USA at all costs so that it takes the pressure off getting a good deal with the rest of the EU. I think she realises that the concessions she will need to make to get the deal we need will be too much for many to accept so she is putting contingency plans in place for not getting a deal with the EU. Unfortunately this means pandering to Trump which makes her look a bit pathetic.
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Imagine our future in the hands of that scumbag?
She is a pathetic flapper and not chinning Trump over his comments about London, shows how much of a shitebag she is.

A grovelling waste of fucking space. Hopefully her and her cabal will be extracted from power come Friday.

Still a long shot, but she is looking gaunt more than usual with fear.

Fox hunting supporting bastard of a woman.

Home Secretary for seven years. Security concerns are her fault, she is trying to sound tough after the horses have bolted. Pathetic and weak.
 
Magicpole said:
Imagine our future in the hands of that scumbag?
She is a pathetic flapper and not chinning Trump over his comments about London, shows how much of a shitebag she is.

A grovelling waste of fucking space. Hopefully her and her cabal will be extracted from power come Friday.

Still a long shot, but she is looking gaunt more than usual with fear.

Fox hunting supporting bastard of a woman.

Home Secretary for seven years. Security concerns are her fault, she is trying to sound tough after the horses have bolted. Pathetic and weak.
Click to expand...

Watching her performance today, she's out-trumped Trump !
 
vonkeynotvenky said:
As a genuine cross party politician misstruster (Not a real word I know) I saw a panel consisting of one lie after another, neither would deliver anything near what I consider a Brexit and am tired of having the Brexit vote brought down to just chasing the economic pot of gold. There are many many voters who voted mainly with their hearts because in reality they have very little else, successive governments have left working class people disenfranchised poorer and more politically isolated, social mobility for the underclass is just a whisper and a lie in most cases.
When politicians argue like children agree on nothing and constantly try to score cheap points just to gain power or massage their egos floating voters like myself are particular confused by it because we don't know which pot to piss in. I'm not a conservative I'm not a socialist and most definitely I'm no liberal I just vote for whichever party I trust and if you ignore the lies you're just left with an xfactor style of liking politicians more than others it's become so personal.
Reading some of the well intentioned and well informed threads on here is difficult but the reality that the well informed and well intentioned posters probably don't understand is that from what I have read they will never shift their allegiances no matter what the opposition offers or invents as truth, the casual voters only have the opportunity to vote for whoever they think is lying the least. Day on day it's getting more complicated and actually believing (I mean genuinely believing) any of these politicians is becoming more and more difficult, and for those who don't follow party politics or have no badge to wear it's left to sound bites and rumour.
Mate, we're up the proverbial creek without a paddle, the people charged with running this country are little more than either back street radicals or Fox hunting poor haters with an eclectic mix of trough feeders trying to fight for a piece of the pie, but we have no choice there are no morals to set them apart and no clear strategy that doesn't involve uniting this divided country without mentioning capitalism or some socialist Utopia.
I may not have worded this well and I apologise for that mate it's not a political speech deserving of the weight of a feather I am just trying to explain that I believe people want a direction they can trust by people they can trust, the shift from centre politics to shouting left and sneering comfortable right with the abject stupid (Like myself) in the middle is killing the feeling of my input into this country.
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Excellent post.

Whatever your political viewpoint, there are factors at play that make the old left/right debate a mute point and that's the disintegration of the nation state in the face of globalisation. When whole regions, whole countries can be devastated by forces outside it's borders, when corporations can move production from one place to another in days, when currencies can be decimated in seconds, when the rich are stateless with no ties to any particular country and feel no compulsion to pay taxes or give back a little of what they take, with no moral or ethical obligation to anything other than their bottom line, then we all become powerless flotsam and jetsam and our politicians sound hollow and shallow, because all too often they are.
 
Magicpole said:
Imagine our future in the hands of that scumbag?
She is a pathetic flapper and not chinning Trump over his comments about London, shows how much of a shitebag she is.

A grovelling waste of fucking space. Hopefully her and her cabal will be extracted from power come Friday.

Still a long shot, but she is looking gaunt more than usual with fear.

Fox hunting supporting bastard of a woman.

Home Secretary for seven years. Security concerns are her fault, she is trying to sound tough after the horses have bolted. Pathetic and weak.
Click to expand...
Unfortunately the one thing that I think would be worse than a May led government would be a Corbyn/ Krankie coalition. So we're fucked.
 
west didsblue said:
Maybe I worded it badly or put it in the wrong thread but the point I was trying to make was that May appears to be trying to get a trade deal with the USA at all costs so that it takes the pressure off getting a good deal with the rest of the EU. I think she realises that the concessions she will need to make to get the deal we need will be too much for many to accept so she is putting contingency plans in place for not getting a deal with the EU. Unfortunately this means pandering to Trump which makes her look a bit pathetic.
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Well that all fair - and better (more objectively I would suggest) worded. The problem is whether we discuss the reality of where we are and how best to develop our trade in a post-Brexit world in a forward looking way, or we look to take the opportunity to simply slag off the UK and/or make cheap political points for narrow agendas.

TBF, this thread has had its fair share of posters that are seemingly only interested in slagging off the UK - so I unfortunately/mistakenly thought you were doing so as well - apologies.

I will come back to Trump

Surely we want our government to now start to plan for strong trading relations across the world? We should for example:

1. Look to establish an advantageous trade agreement with the EU as we depart
2. Act quickly to establish TAs with other countries, especially such as Australia and New Zealand to address any issues that we might have if there are tariffs when trading with, let's say Ireland and any other EU country.
3. Be looking at establishing TAs with all major blocs and individual countries

Surely that all makes sense and we will want to act in a manner that grows our relationships with those blocs and individual countries in a positive manner. We would not want to deliberately piss off China, nor Australia or any country - we would be rightly aghast if our leading politicians went out of their way to alienate any potential major trading partner in a gratuitous manner

Which brings us back to the US/Trump

We did not vote in the US election - as we did not in any other country's leader. We did not and cannot determine who is elected to lead other countries - we have to simply work with who is elected.

In the case of the US, Trump was elected for an initial 4 year term only back in November. It is just a fact that we need to work with him - perhaps for the next 8 years. We might all have reservations - even active dislike. It is OK for the more forthright people on Bluemoon to call him a fuckwit, ****, etc. but we should not be expecting our leaders to be doing so, nor going out of their way to damage relationships ahead of trade talks.

Those on here that just want to slag off the UK and the government will just take the Trump presidency as an opportunity to continue their slagging off of moving the UK forward - mainly because they do not want Brexit to work

Government leaders should be capable of finding the balance to criticise Trump - or any other Leader that does things worthy of criticism, such as abandoning the agreement on climate change controls, whist avoiding damaging relationships to a level that is detrimental to our nation

It is politics and we need to look to actions that are to the benefit of our nation - without undue compromises
 
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jonmcity said:
We have also lost all the trade agreements in place with the EU and the rest of the world, I.e. the 7.5b. It will take many years to get them back in place.
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We have not lost anything from the EU as yet, what trade agreements have we lost with the rest of the world?
 
Ancient Citizen said:
We have not lost anything from the EU as yet, what trade agreements have we lost with the rest of the world?
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As a member of the EU we have trade agreements as below we are also walking away from these, as well as the expected EU trade agreement with the US.

European Free Trade Association[edit]

EFTA Free trade agreements
EFTA[4] has bilateral agreements with the following countries – including dependent territories – and blocs:

 
Ancient Citizen said:
Opening up trade to 7.5 billion people is a good one though.
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Opening up trade or opening up free trade? :-)

Therein lies the rub. This is an issue that for centuries has divided the Conservative Party, and I fully expect it to surface in the next couple of years. Should make the EU question appear like a minor squabble.
 
jonmcity said:
As a member of the EU we have trade agreements as below we are also walking away from these, as well as the expected EU trade agreement with the US.[/QUOTE
Do you honestly think any of those, most of which benefit from UK trade, will also walk away?
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jonmcity said:
As a member of the EU we have trade agreements as below we are also walking away from these, as well as the expected EU trade agreement with the US.

European Free Trade Association[edit]

EFTA Free trade agreements
EFTA[4] has bilateral agreements with the following countries – including dependent territories – and blocs:

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Those are countries that EFTA has free trade agreements with. The EU doesn't have as many.

We should rejoin EFTA as a fast track to getting some agreements in place.
 
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