Article 50/Brexit Negotiations

[The perfect fumble]

Leaving the EU is what it is, remainers coined the term hard brexit to give themselves wiggle room. May and Corbyn both said that brexit means the end of free movement and that by default means leaving the single market. Unless the EU give us a special deal which nobody can envisage can they?

The EU won't give us a special deal.

What remainers/soft Brexiters are doing is making access to the single market the front and centre issue (as opposed to May banging on about immigration) so that the public realises how important single market access is, once that's lodged in the public consciousness and more importantly, what the consequences of losing access might mean, the debate moves to a trade off, what will we concede to have access to the single market, and then free movement slides back on to the table and we are in either/or country.

It's what politicians mean when they talk about "changing the conversation".

It's a classic negotiating tactic, mcfc1632 would approve.

 

[vonkeynotvenky]

The EU won't give us a special deal.

What remainers/soft Brexiters are doing is making access to the single market the front and centre issue (as opposed to May banging on about immigration) so that the public realises how important single market access is, once that's lodged n the public consciousness and more importantly, what the consequences of losing access might mean, the debate moves to a trade off, what will we concede to have access to the single market, and then free movement slides back on to the table and we are in either/or country.

It's classic negotiating tactics, mcfc1632 would approve.

It's the political union many Brexit voters are opposed to. Jeremy himself stated that the exploitation of foreign workers brought over through agencies by big business undercutting the British population has to stop and I agree with him. That's why he cornered so many ukip voters because he made his stance clear that leaving the EU means leaving the single market and as you say negotiations start from that point.
If we get out of this EU mess cleanly I would vote Labour next time round because I agree with most of their policies and was happy in the end to hear the views on Brexit and the aims to stop exploitation. If there was another GE in the near future and he put even more meat on those bones I would have no problem putting my cross next to his name as leader.

 

[Tim of the Oak]

The EU won't give us a special deal.

What remainers/soft Brexiters are doing is making access to the single market the front and centre issue (as opposed to May banging on about immigration) so that the public realises how important single market access is, once that's lodged in the public consciousness and more importantly, what the consequences of losing access might mean, the debate moves to a trade off, what will we concede to have access to the single market, and then free movement slides back on to the table and we are in either/or country.

It's a classic negotiating tactic, mcfc1632 would approve.

I agree. May also made a very big deal of our intelligence services strengthening EU security, as a negotiating chip. This has backfired with our over stretched security services failing to act on intelligence from Italy about one of the London Bridge murderers. Most EU countries don't need anything from us so the likelihood is WTO tariffs (bad position) or bad deal with the EU.

 

[bugsyblue]

Genuine to question to everyone who voted Leave. Do you still think it's a good idea? And would you vote the same way if the referendum was today?

 

[vonkeynotvenky]

Genuine to question to everyone who voted Leave. Do you still think it's a good idea? And would you vote the same way if the referendum was today?

I would vote leave again, there is no upside to voting remain IMO. Both major parties are sending the message out that it's happening albeit with some Horse trading but we're leaving.

 

[gordondaviesmoustache]

Genuine to question to everyone who voted Leave. Do you still think it's a good idea? And would you vote the same way if the referendum was today?

I think a lot of people who voted leave couldn't have envisioned having someone so ill-equipped to conduct the negotiations at the helm. On that basis, there must be some having doubts about the way they cast their vote.

 

[blueinsa]

Genuine to question to everyone who voted Leave. Do you still think it's a good idea? And would you vote the same way if the referendum was today?

I voted to leave and i still think its a good idea to leave.

I also expect the government of the day, whoever it is to put the result of the referendum, one they all signed up to at the front of what they are doing and ensure that we do leave the EU.

Politicians thinking they can fudge this are on a one way street to losing their seats, its that simple.

 

[vonkeynotvenky]

I think a lot of people who voted leave couldn't have envisioned having someone so ill-equipped to conduct the negotiations at the helm. On that basis, there must be some having doubts about the way they cast their vote.

She's a total failure isn't she? But the deal will be done by others and David Davies looks to be a more than able front for Brexit negotiations.

 

[gordondaviesmoustache]

She's a total failure isn't she? But the deal will be done by others and David Davies looks to be a more than able front for Brexit negotiations.

David Davies is hugely capable, but May's looming presence will still inform the tone of the negotiations.

 

[The perfect fumble]

It's the political union many Brexit voters are opposed to. Jeremy himself stated that the exploitation of foreign workers brought over through agencies by big business undercutting the British population has to stop and I agree with him. That's why he cornered so many ukip voters because he made his stance clear that leaving the EU means leaving the single market and as you say negotiations start from that point.
If we get out of this EU mess cleanly I would vote Labour next time round because I agree with most of their policies and was happy in the end to hear the views on Brexit and the aims to stop exploitation. If there was another GE in the near future and he put even more meat on those bones I would have no problem putting my cross next to his name as leader.

That's great to hear. Labour had a simple policy of insisting all immigrant workers must join a union, which means they could not under cut local labour. When David Davis says that after even after the hardest Brexit imaginable, immigrant numbers may not fall, he exposed the central problem, people are not worried about the nationality of the immigrant worker undercutting them, they just don't want to be undercut.

May countered Corbyn's proposal by saying she'd charge £2,000 a head to employers bringing in immigrant labour. It's the downward spiral on wages that really concerns people coupled with the fact that because of Tory cuts services have suffered, particularly those funds that previously were ring fenced for areas of high immigration. Labour has policies to cover all of this and now they are beginning to be heard.

 

[Tim of the Oak]

She's a total failure isn't she? But the deal will be done by others and David Davies looks to be a more than able front for Brexit negotiations.

The negotiations are so vast that we will need a very formidable team of negotiators and I'm not sure we have the strength in depth.

We voted leave like you say so that should be honoured but prospects for the negotiations are, unfortunately, pretty grim.

 

[vonkeynotvenky]

David Davies is hugely capable, but May's looming presence will still inform the tone of the negotiations.

I'm a bit radical about Brexit i'd have brought Farage in to negotiate and to nail down the details, we know he wouldn't have been reduced to jelly by the EU negotiators. Trusting any politician let alone the confirmed babbler May is a mistake, but it doesn't mean we ignore the result of the ref it means we make the most of a bad hand dealt by the Tory parties choice of a leader.

 

[blueinsa]

The EU won't give us a special deal.

What remainers/soft Brexiters are doing is making access to the single market the front and centre issue (as opposed to May banging on about immigration) so that the public realises how important single market access is, once that's lodged in the public consciousness and more importantly, what the consequences of losing access might mean, the debate moves to a trade off, what will we concede to have access to the single market, and then free movement slides back on to the table and we are in either/or country.

It's what politicians mean when they talk about "changing the conversation".

It's a classic negotiating tactic, mcfc1632 would approve.

So basically we remain in?

Not going to happen and no amount of muddy water that we are currently experiencing will change that imo.

We voted to leave. Soft/hard are post vote terms invented by remainers desperate to get their own way on this.

 

[vonkeynotvenky]

That's great to hear. Labour had a simple policy of insisting all immigrant workers must join a union, which means they could not under cut local labour. When David Davis says that after even after the hardest Brexit imaginable, immigrant numbers may not fall, he exposed the central problem, people are not worried about the nationality of the immigrant worker undercutting them, they just don't want to be undercut.

May countered Corbyn's proposal by saying she'd charge £2,000 a head to employers bringing in immigrant labour. It's the downward spiral on wages that really concerns people coupled with the fact that because of Tory cuts services have suffered, particularly those funds that previously were ring fenced for areas of high immigration. Labour has policies to cover all of this and now they are beginning to be heard.

The really baffling thing for me is that we see a lot of Eastern European workers coming here (Nothing against people wanting a better life for themselves and their families at all) but we are not seeing those same numbers coming from Greece Spain Portugal where youth unemployment is high. Is there a cultural reason for this? Or is it just a case of corporates planning their workforce using eastern European labour?

 

[The perfect fumble]

I agree. May also made a very big deal of our intelligence services strengthening EU security, as a negotiating chip. This has backfired with our over stretched security services failing to act on intelligence from Italy about one of the London Bridge murderers. Most EU countries don't need anything from us so the likelihood is WTO tariffs (bad position) or bad deal with the EU.

May has lost the initiative, the political capital she was hoping to harvest post election has evaporated, she's no longer in the driving seat, so other voices are beginning to be heard. Those droning on about getting behind Britain were really saying "trust your betters" we're taking you where we want to, a destination unknown, with repercussions you'll have to live with once they arrive.

That won't wash anymore.

 

[vonkeynotvenky]

The negotiations are so vast that we will need a very formidable team of negotiators and I'm not sure we have the strength in depth.

We voted leave like you say so that should be honoured but prospects for the negotiations are, unfortunately, pretty grim.

This is new territory isn't it? Everything is up in the air and negotiations haven't started yet. But as a leaver and with my bias I can see that Frau Merkel seems to have a bigger voice than all other EU leaders a voice we never seemed to have. That alone makes me want out at any cost.

 

[The perfect fumble]

So basically we remain in?

Not going to happen and no amount of muddy water that we are currently experiencing will change that imo.

We voted to leave. Soft/hard are post vote terms invented by remainers desperate to get their own way on this.

Then the phony war is over, if we leave then the consequences of leaving must be fully known and embraced by the leavers, it should be the leavers asking for more detail not the remainers. After all this is what you wanted, embrace it, own it, if you continue to live in a cake and eat it fantasy don't cry when you wake up one morning to find something you didn't want.

 

[The perfect fumble]

David Davies is hugely capable, but May's looming presence will still inform the tone of the negotiations.

What has Davis ever done to lead you to believe that?

 

[The perfect fumble]

The really baffling thing for me is that we see a lot of Eastern European workers coming here (Nothing against people wanting a better life for themselves and their families at all) but we are not seeing those same numbers coming from Greece Spain Portugal where youth unemployment is high. Is there a cultural reason for this? Or is it just a case of corporates planning their workforce using eastern European labour?

That's a good point. I don't know the answer to that, it might be worth digging around to find out.

 

[Tim of the Oak]

The really baffling thing for me is that we see a lot of Eastern European workers coming here (Nothing against people wanting a better life for themselves and their families at all) but we are not seeing those same numbers coming from Greece Spain Portugal where youth unemployment is high. Is there a cultural reason for this? Or is it just a case of corporates planning their workforce using eastern European labour?

That's not really the case mate. I have attached an article from the telegraph showing where the immigrants come from. It's a year or two old gives some perspective.
http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/gen...he-Britains-migrants-coming-from-and-why.html

A lot depends on where you live so, for
example, Many Portuguese are helping farming in East Anglia and Lincolnshire.

Fewer skilled Easter Europeans are now coming here because we are seen as a less welcoming country.