Article 50/Brexit Negotiations

[smudgedj]

People have voted for 2 parties who have pledged specifically an end to free movement. The majority of MPs who vote to keep freedom of movement would lose their seats, if you want to leave you can't keep access to single access and freedom of movement, it's the whole point.

You can have free movement as long as you have the ability to limit the availability of work, housing and welfare to new arrivals.

 

[jonmcity]

Which is the policy of both major parties.

The conservatives said they were prepared to walk away without any deal. If they are not they should not have said it. What's more we should have approached the talks with a working together approach, rather than a threatening one.

 

[PannickAtTheDisco]

You can have free movement as long as you have the ability to limit the availability of work, housing and welfare to new arrivals.

but that's not free movement in the EU's definition. It's what I'd propose but it would mean an end to the single market.

 

[blueparrot]

Which is the policy of both major parties.

It is but one is more open to compromise than the other. That said there are many conservative MPs more open to compromise than the current leadership.

 

[west didsblue]

Be careful quoting examples you are not fully clued up on.
Ask Bulgaria and Rumania or Croatia if they are enjoying freedom of movement with non-eu Switzerland.

You're right about Switzerland as it's not formally part of the EEA, however both Norway and Iceland are not in the EU but are in the EEA and have free movement. Switzerland's status is a bit more complicated but I'm sure you're aware of that.

 

[Gelsons Dad]

The conservatives said they were prepared to walk away without any deal. If they are not they should not have said it. What's more we should have approached the talks with a working together approach, rather than a threatening one.

You are confusing a negotiating tactic with a policy ambition. We could make the same argument for Labours UK Jobs first stance. What happens if the EU insist equal opportunity for all EU nationals in the UK jobs market. Labours policy is trashed but they accept it?

 

[blueinsa]

It is but one is more open to compromise than the other. That said there are many conservative MPs more open to compromise than the current leadership.

This isnt about what 657 MP's want.

Its about what the electorate wanted and voted for democratically.

 

[smudgedj]

The conservatives said they were prepared to walk away without any deal. If they are not they should not have said it. What's more we should have approached the talks with a working together approach, rather than a threatening one.

Why would you accept a deal that was worst than going to WTO rules, so they are right to say they would walk away.

 

[Gelsons Dad]

You're right about Switzerland as it's not formally part of the EEA, however both Norway and Iceland are not in the EU but are in the EEA and have free movement. Switzerland's status is a bit more complicated but I'm sure you're aware of that.

Which is why I don't see a problem with the UK's stated aim of access to the single market without acceptance of the 4 freedoms. Things are not black and white when it comes to the EU. They can and do make allowances.

 

[jonmcity]

You are confusing a negotiating tactic with a policy ambition. We could make the same argument for Labours UK Jobs first stance. What happens if the EU insist equal opportunity for all EU nationals in the UK jobs market. Labours policy is trashed but they accept it?

Its a crass negotiating tactic. That is my point, we need trade and should have been saying lets work together to improve the lot for all of us.

 

[blueparrot]

This isnt about what 657 MP's want.

Its about what the electorate wanted and voted for democratically.

That maybe what you think it should be , you're wrong once elected then it's almost entirely down to what those MP s want. Your view won't count until you vote again. Their job is to interpret the referendum vote and work out a deal that is in the best interest of the country in THEIR opinion.

 

[west didsblue]

Which is why I don't see a problem with the UK's stated aim of access to the single market without acceptance of the 4 freedoms. Things are not black and white when it comes to the EU. They can and do make allowances.

I agree with that and a good starting point would be joining EFTA (if they'll have us) and taking advantage of the agreements already in place with the EU, then negotiating side agreements as Switzerland has done.

 

[west didsblue]

This isnt about what 657 MP's want.

Its about what the electorate wanted and voted for democratically.

Who do the extra 7 MPs represent?

 

[Gelsons Dad]

Its a crass negotiating tactic. That is my point, we need trade and should have been saying lets work together to improve the lot for all of us.

No more crass than 100 billion divorce threat.
If you are not prepared to walk away from a deal you will always get fucked.

 

[jonmcity]

No more crass than 100 billion divorce threat.
If you are not prepared to walk away from a deal you will always get fucked.

Yep some retaliation from the EU, would not have been said if we had started with a consolatory approach. Yes you have to be prepared to walk away, and stay with the status quo until a deal can be reached. i.e. stay in veto everything, until they are prepared to talk.

A Member State could legally reverse a decision to withdraw from the EU at any point before the date on which the withdrawal agreement took effect. Once the withdrawal agreement had taken effect, however, withdrawal was final. Sir David told us: “It is absolutely clear that you cannot be forced to go through with it if you do not want to: for example, if there is a change of Government.” Professor Wyatt supported this view with the following legal analysis:

 

[blueinsa]

That maybe what you think it should be , you're wrong once elected then it's almost entirely down to what those MP s want. Your view won't count until you vote again. Their job is to interpret the referendum vote and work out a deal that is in the best interest of the country in THEIR opinion.

No doubt but they will all know that the choice they make on this will decide their fates at the next GE after brexit so the ball is very much in their courts and i see an electorate who will no longer accept excuses.

Who do the extra 7 MPs represent?

My bad but im sure the Tories wouldn't mind them right now ;-)

 

[Gelsons Dad]

Yep some retaliation from the EU, would not have been said if we had started with a consolatory approach.

Without getting into time lines I think you will find the initial threat was from the EU with regards to free trade agreements.

 

[jonmcity]

Without getting into time lines I think you will find the initial threat was from the EU with regards to free trade agreements.

Just proves their negotiators are still in the primary school playground like ours. We need the grown ups to intervene and pull the fight apart.

 

[smudgedj]

A Member State could legally reverse a decision to withdraw from the EU at any point before the date on which the withdrawal agreement took effect. Once the withdrawal agreement had taken effect, however, withdrawal was final. Sir David told us: “It is absolutely clear that you cannot be forced to go through with it if you do not want to: for example, if there is a change of Government.” Professor Wyatt supported this view with the following legal analysis:

He's wrong; that's what the vote in parliament was about. The High Court and Supreme Court both ruled on the assumption that notification under Article 50 is irrevocable - it was the premise that underpinned Gina Miller's case, it was the reason we ended up having a vote in Parliament.

 

[jonmcity]

He's wrong; that's what the vote in parliament was about. The High Court and Supreme Court both ruled on the assumption that notification under Article 50 is irrevocable - it was the premise that underpinned Gina Miller's case, it was the reason we ended up having a vote in Parliament.

It is possible according to the Vienna Convention, it might take another vote in parliament though.