Article 50/Brexit Negotiations

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A lot of wishful thinking on this thread Brexit will go ahead in a constructive way and at a pace the country can adapt to.
 
vonkeynotvenky said:
A lot of wishful thinking on this thread Brexit will go ahead in a constructive way and at a pace the country can adapt to.
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I think our Government's Strategy will include making a half hearted attempt to agree a softer Brexit and then try to blame the EU when the other Countries reject what we offer in the negotiations.
 
When.the penny drops, and those who voted on the promise of sending all them nasty foreigners back and closing the door on any more and the nhs getting millions of pounds, was nothing but lies, there are going to be some harsh words about it. The brexit poll was the dirtiest trick to have been inflicted on the electorate since the right to buy stitch-up. For every council house sold, we will build another to replace it (will we fuck ) and they never did . And the media ignored it. When the public were asked to vote on leaving the EU, the media plumbed new depths even for them, in a campaign that lied lied and lied again. Doubts about brexit? you are a remoaner, democracy dictates that the 2% margin is enough. Never mind the consequences (job losses inflation etc) the die has been cast Irony at it's most bitter as those who voted to leave to end immigration will not live to see it happen, those who voted to take back control ( ffs) will find the only taking back of control will be by the boardrooms of the multinationals rolling back workers rights which has been their aim from the start.
 
Bigga said:
Apparently dropping from €80BN a month to €60BN!

That's nice, eh?

You know, I read that this easing has boosted the European markets!!

So, is that a false inflation or not?

Is anyone prepared to explain it (less the one clown), so we understand what's what?

I know there are financial wizards aplenty, on here.

Cheers.
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Expert, moi? An A level in Economics many many years ago?

Well, basically the central bank creates money which we end up owing them. If we owe them so much that we can't afford to buy things they create more. Plenty of online explanations of the money supply system.

Here's the official Bank of England version:
http://www.bankofengland.co.uk/monetarypolicy/pages/qe/default.aspx
complete with a little video.

The ECB is creating money to buy bonds - the 60m Euro a month rather than 80m means doing it for less each month but for longer than planned.

Whether it's a good thing or not (and for whom) is why George Bernard Shaw said: "If all economists were laid end to end, they would not reach a conclusion."
 
NHS leaders launched a Brexit alliance last week at the NHS Confederation Conference. Nobody is asking for the election to be re-run. It is more about working with the Goverment to help to mitigate the damage Brexit is doing e.g. the 96 percent reduction in nursing applications from the EU.

The NHS should have been doing more to develop the homegrown workforce but it will struggle to cope with the disappearing EU supply for the foreseeable future.
 
bellbuzzer said:
When.the penny drops, and those who voted on the promise of sending all them nasty foreigners back and closing the door on any more and the nhs getting millions of pounds, was nothing but lies, there are going to be some harsh words about it. The brexit poll was the dirtiest trick to have been inflicted on the electorate since the right to buy stitch-up. For every council house sold, we will build another to replace it (will we fuck ) and they never did . And the media ignored it. When the public were asked to vote on leaving the EU, the media plumbed new depths even for them, in a campaign that lied lied and lied again. Doubts about brexit? you are a remoaner, democracy dictates that the 2% margin is enough. Never mind the consequences (job losses inflation etc) the die has been cast Irony at it's most bitter as those who voted to leave to end immigration will not live to see it happen, those who voted to take back control ( ffs) will find the only taking back of control will be by the boardrooms of the multinationals rolling back workers rights which has been their aim from the start.
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im guessing your a remainer haha
 
goalmole said:
Ok. personally I think a lot of people in the Tory party are beginning to get the jitters. The reality is beginning to dawn as to what a disaster this really is for the country. If they could have their way without any adverse consequenses or alternatively, blame it on someone else, I think they would bin it today. You can see that in the changing language of the politicians. In my opinion they are looking for ways to row back and dress it up as Brexit. You can bet your life there will be meetings going on behind closed doors as to how this can be acheived. I may be a bit premature in making a prediction but I think Brexit, in the form that most people visualised it, i.e the UK putting two fingers up to the EU and making a clean break, with an end to immigration and making up for it with the UK doing deals with governments all over the world, is largely dead. All that will happen now is that the government will backtrack with it's tail between it's legs and dress it up to the Brexiteers as some kind of victory.
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in your opinion, rather then be doom and gloom about it, see the potential opportunities it gives us. the changing in language is mainly coming from politicians who want the uk to remain in the eu. the dominant voices in the media right now are soubry, gina miller, allister campbell and people like that- prominent remainers. In the main most others and both parties are committed to leaving the single market. if we dont leave that they wouldn't be able to dress it up as some kind of victory, as that wouldn't be leaving and most people know that. Corbyn, mcdonnel and emily thornberry all recognize that as well ( media apparenaces the last few days), as did the labour manifesto.

there is some wishful thinking from remainers on this thread haha
 
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Cheadle_hulmeBlue said:
in your opinion, rather then be doom and gloom about it, see the potential opportunities it gives us. the changing in language is mainly coming from politicians who want the uk to remain in the eu. the dominant voices in the media right now are soubry, gina miller, allister campbell and people like that- prominent remainers. In the main most others and both parties are committed to leaving the single market. if we dont leave that they wouldn't be able to dress it up as some kind of victory, as that wouldn't be leaving and most people know that. Corbyn, mcdonnel and emily thornberry all recognize that as well ( media apparenaces the last few days), as did the labour manifesto.

there is some wishful thinking from remainers on this thread haha
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I'm glad you find amusement in the comments of people whom you might describe as Remainers. However if you stop sneering and take off your Brexit glasses for a few minutes and find out what the politicians are saying you will see that they are already changing the goalposts. True the Labour party is committed to leave but if you look beyond the headline you willsee that things are rather different. Chuka Umunna in an article has said that no way would the Labour party sacrifice the economy at the altar of lower immigration. This is the link https://www.theguardian.com/comment...-clear-brexit-single-market-membership-brexit, Straight from the horses mouth. It quotes Barry Gardiner, the Labour shadow Brexit secretary as saying that a reformed single market and customs union couldn't be ruled out. The links are in the Chuka Umunna article, I cant be arsed typing all the relevant points out, read it for yourself.
As for the Tories, it's going to depend on what the MP's decide they want to do. What May thinks isn't even relevant anymore. She has lost the power to drive through her vision of Brexit. That's why she called the election in the first place, to shore up her position. She will do what the party wants her to do, parliament will vote it through and all the shit will be made to cling to her before she is pushed off the edge of a cliff with all the blame attached. I'll give you a another link, https://www.theguardian.com/politics/2017/jun/16/philip-hammond-brexit-talks-brussels-uk-eu.
Then we come to the DUP and Northen Ireland question. I defy anybody to unravel the conundrum of the Northern Ireland border without causing a) unification or b) a rejection of a hard border by Sinn Fein and therefore the IRA thereby putting peace in Northern Ireland in jeopardy.
It really isn't as simple or as cut and dried as Brexiteers would like to believe. There is a long way to go but the signs are already there that the tide is turning.
I'll reiterate my prediction once more so you can have another laugh at the Remainers expense: it will be an arrangement that in the main will be remain( something resembling the single market, customs union and free movement included) with a few tweaks and the government swearing blind that what they've got is Brexit albeit a Soft Brexit or a Jobs First Brexit or call it what you want. I dont expect you to agree with me but at least have a good think before you laugh.
 
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Bigga said:
Can I ask, cos I don't get it, why it's okay for the EU to pump €80BN a month into the Euro, for quantative easing and it's okay, but we're not allowed and we have to live with austerity measures?

I never quite understand why it's alright for one, but not another, considering the strength of the pound is not calamitous as one would expect at this stage.
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It's almost like it's some sort of magic money tree...?
Len Rum said:
Meanwhile in other news David Davis, having promised the mother of all rows with the EU over their insistence that divorce proceedings must be settled before trade talks, meekly accepted on Friday that the UK would agree to the EU's timetable.
At around the same time spreadsheet Phil stated that the economy, jobs and prosperity should be the priority for the UK in the Brexit negotiations ( no mention of immigration or sovereignty).
And so it ends.
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Edited..
 
“We export more to Ireland than we do to China, almost twice as much to Belgium as we do to India, and nearly three times as much to Sweden as we do to Brazil. IT IS NOT REALISTIC TO THINK WE COULD JUST REPLACE EUROPEAN TRADE WITH THESE NEW MARKETS.

“If we do vote to leave the European Union, we risk bringing the development of the single market to a halt, we risk a loss of investors and businesses to remaining EU member states driven by discriminatory EU policies, and WE RISK GOING BACKWARDS WHEN IT COMES TO INTERNATIONAL TRADE.

“Outside the EU, for example, we would have no access to the European Arrest Warrant, which has allowed us to extradite more than 5,000 people from Britain to Europe in the last five years, and bring 675 suspected or convicted wanted individuals to Britain to face justice.

“IN A STAND-OFF BETWEEN BRITAIN AND THE EU, 44 PER CENT OF OUR EXPORTS IS MORE IMPORTANT TO US THAN EIGHT PER CENT OF THE EU’S EXPORTS IS TO THEM.

“The reality is that we do not know on what terms we would win access to the single market. We do know that in a negotiation we would need to make concessions in order to access it, and those concessions could well be about accepting EU regulations, over which we would have no say, making financial contributions, just as we do now, accepting free movement rules, just as we do now, or quite possibly all three combined. IT IS NOT CLEAR WHY OTHER EU MEMBER STATES WOULD GIVE BRITAIN A BETTER DEAL THAN THEY THEMSELVES ENJOY.

“REMAINING INSIDE THE EUROPEAN UNION DOES MAKE US MORE SECURE, IT DOES MAKE US MORE PROSPEROUS AND IT DOES MAKE US MORE INFLUENTIAL BEYOND OUR SHORES.

“I believe the case to remain a member of the European Union is strong.

“I believe IT IS CLEARLY IN OUR NATIONAL INTEREST TO REMAIN A MEMBER OF THE EUROPEAN UNION.”

Guess who said this in a speech barely 2 months before the referendum. I'll leave it to you to work out who she May be.
Sorry about the caps, it's a cut and paste.
 
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Gabriel said:
A view of how some Germans view the ongoing situation.

http://www.spiegel.de/international...t-the-hands-of-theresa-may-a-1152330-amp.html
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It's schadenfreude for the way we have conducted ourselves vis a vis Europe for decades. In it, not for the greater good or for the development and unity of the continent but for what we can get out of it, to further our own parochial economic interest. Never really at the centre of it, always on the fringes looking for our own narrow self interest. They're laughing at us, understandably so in my opinion. We deserve it.
 
goalmole said:
It's schadenfreude for the way we have conducted ourselves vis a vis Europe for decades. In it, not for the greater good or for the development and unity of the continent but for what we can get out of it, to further our own parochial economic interest. Never really at the centre of it, always on the fringes looking for our own narrow self interest. They're laughing at us, understandably so in my opinion. We deserve it.
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giphy.gif
 
bellbuzzer said:
When.the penny drops, and those who voted on the promise of sending all them nasty foreigners back and closing the door on any more and the nhs getting millions of pounds, was nothing but lies, there are going to be some harsh words about it. The brexit poll was the dirtiest trick to have been inflicted on the electorate since the right to buy stitch-up. For every council house sold, we will build another to replace it (will we fuck ) and they never did . And the media ignored it. When the public were asked to vote on leaving the EU, the media plumbed new depths even for them, in a campaign that lied lied and lied again. Doubts about brexit? you are a remoaner, democracy dictates that the 2% margin is enough. Never mind the consequences (job losses inflation etc) the die has been cast Irony at it's most bitter as those who voted to leave to end immigration will not live to see it happen, those who voted to take back control ( ffs) will find the only taking back of control will be by the boardrooms of the multinationals rolling back workers rights which has been their aim from the start.
Click to expand...

So why was virtually every multinational in favour of remain?
And every bank?
Were they all thick, northern, working class racists, as well?
 
goalmole said:
“We export more to Ireland than we do to China, almost twice as much to Belgium as we do to India, and nearly three times as much to Sweden as we do to Brazil. IT IS NOT REALISTIC TO THINK WE COULD JUST REPLACE EUROPEAN TRADE WITH THESE NEW MARKETS.

“If we do vote to leave the European Union, we risk bringing the development of the single market to a halt, we risk a loss of investors and businesses to remaining EU member states driven by discriminatory EU policies, and WE RISK GOING BACKWARDS WHEN IT COMES TO INTERNATIONAL TRADE.

“Outside the EU, for example, we would have no access to the European Arrest Warrant, which has allowed us to extradite more than 5,000 people from Britain to Europe in the last five years, and bring 675 suspected or convicted wanted individuals to Britain to face justice.

“IN A STAND-OFF BETWEEN BRITAIN AND THE EU, 44 PER CENT OF OUR EXPORTS IS MORE IMPORTANT TO US THAN EIGHT PER CENT OF THE EU’S EXPORTS IS TO THEM.

“The reality is that we do not know on what terms we would win access to the single market. We do know that in a negotiation we would need to make concessions in order to access it, and those concessions could well be about accepting EU regulations, over which we would have no say, making financial contributions, just as we do now, accepting free movement rules, just as we do now, or quite possibly all three combined. IT IS NOT CLEAR WHY OTHER EU MEMBER STATES WOULD GIVE BRITAIN A BETTER DEAL THAN THEY THEMSELVES ENJOY.

“REMAINING INSIDE THE EUROPEAN UNION DOES MAKE US MORE SECURE, IT DOES MAKE US MORE PROSPEROUS AND IT DOES MAKE US MORE INFLUENTIAL BEYOND OUR SHORES.

“I believe the case to remain a member of the European Union is strong.

“I believe IT IS CLEARLY IN OUR NATIONAL INTEREST TO REMAIN A MEMBER OF THE EUROPEAN UNION.”

Guess who said this in a speech barely 2 months before the referendum. I'll leave it to you to work out who she May be.
Sorry about the caps, it's a cut and paste.
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Why?
Because we are not able to trade on our own terms with those nations.
It's a function of the EU cartel.
 
goalmole said:
I'm glad you find amusement in the comments of people whom you might describe as Remainers. However if you stop sneering and take off your Brexit glasses for a few minutes and find out what the politicians are saying you will see that they are already changing the goalposts. True the Labour party is committed to leave but if you look beyond the headline you willsee that things are rather different. Chuka Umunna in an article has said that no way would the Labour party sacrifice the economy at the altar of lower immigration. This is the link https://www.theguardian.com/comment...-clear-brexit-single-market-membership-brexit, Straight from the horses mouth. It quotes Barry Gardiner, the Labour shadow Brexit secretary as saying that a reformed single market and customs union couldn't be ruled out. The links are in the Chuka Umunna article, I cant be arsed typing all the relevant points out, read it for yourself.
As for the Tories, it's going to depend on what the MP's decide they want to do. What May thinks isn't even relevant anymore. She has lost the power to drive through her vision of Brexit. That's why she called the election in the first place, to shore up her position. She will do what the party wants her to do, parliament will vote it through and all the shit will be made to cling to her before she is pushed off the edge of a cliff with all the blame attached. I'll give you a another link, https://www.theguardian.com/politics/2017/jun/16/philip-hammond-brexit-talks-brussels-uk-eu.
Then we come to the DUP and Northen Ireland question. I defy anybody to unravel the conundrum of the Northern Ireland border without causing a) unification or b) a rejection of a hard border by Sinn Fein and therefore the IRA thereby putting peace in Northern Ireland in jeopardy.
It really isn't as simple or as cut and dried as Brexiteers would like to believe. There is a long way to go but the signs are already there that the tide is turning.
I'll reiterate my prediction once more so you can have another laugh at the Remainers expense: it will be an arrangement that in the main will be remain( something resembling the single market, customs union and free movement included) with a few tweaks and the government swearing blind that what they've got is Brexit albeit a Soft Brexit or a Jobs First Brexit or call it what you want. I dont expect you to agree with me but at least have a good think before you laugh.
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sneering ? all I've seen from a large number of remainers is sneering. looking down on people who voted leave and calling them idiots and telling them they didnt know what they voted for..... you've given me two examples there of labour mps. barry gardiner in an interview on the daily politics last week said wed be leaving the single market. the majority consensus from labour seems to be closest possible access to the single market, but not membership. as I said mcdonnel, corbyn and emily thornberry all said we are leaving the single market and are committed to that, so unless there manifesto was a lie and all the top labors mps are lying ?. hammodn in an interview today also agrees with that.

Mays version of brexit is pretty much the same as labours version, the only difference is labour wont accept no deal at all. both parties ran on ending freedom of movement and leaving the single market and most of population voted for those two. If commentators are to be believed then the dup also share the same vision of brexit. all a lot of remainers have done is laugh and look down at people who voted leave.........btw i fully accept it might not be as simple as that and we could end up with a different version, but so far it seems both parties in the main are committed to fully leaving the eu.






3.15 onwards
 
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