Article 50/Brexit Negotiations

[BobKowalski]

So months after the EU said the sequence for talks will be divorce first, trade and future relations second and the UK stated no way and it will cause the mother of all rows we have on day 1 an agreement on the sequence for talks which is....(drum roll please). Divorce first, trade and future relations second. Cracking start by Davis.

 

[CitizenTID]

So months after the EU said the sequence for talks will be divorce first, trade and future relations second and the UK stated no way and it will cause the mother of all rows we have on day 1 an agreement on the sequence for talks which is....(drum roll please). Divorce first, trade and future relations second. Cracking start by Davis.

Whats the problem? I've not looked into any of that but it looks like the logical sequence in a time restricted negotiation? I'm sure there will be overlap - we should be finding areas of agreement first in any case to get those matters out the way and save time for what could be tricky negotiations.

Should the Rep. not take a special part in these talks more than the other EU countries considering the NI border and CTA? Brexit inevitably means the Rep. have tricky talks too, not just with us (I think we'd be mutual on matters though) but other EU countries.

 

[goalmole]

So months after the EU said the sequence for talks will be divorce first, trade and future relations second and the UK stated no way and it will cause the mother of all rows we have on day 1 an agreement on the sequence for talks which is....(drum roll please). Divorce first, trade and future relations second. Cracking start by Davis.

That's because the EU have set their stall out from the very first day. We won't be given a better deal than we have already. We have fuck all to bargain with and we will take what they give us or at the end of 2 years we get thrown out on WTO terms. That's the long and the short of it.

 

[adrianr]

That's because the EU have set their stall out from the very first day. We won't be given a better deal than we have already. We have fuck all to bargain with and we will take what they give us or at the end of 2 years we get thrown out on WTO terms. That's the long and the short of it.

But fear not, as long as we keep them immigrants out and sing Rule Britannia loud enough everything will be bloody marvelous.

Purely anecdotal but nearly every leaver I've spoken too since a few months after the vote, mostly my dad's side of the family, are all coming to the realisation they may have dropped a massive bollock. On the other hand I know not a single remainer who 'just wants us to get on with it' and leave. Another couple of years of the reality really sinking in during these negotiations and by the time Davis comes out with what will certainly be a bollocks deal the majority will want no part of it.

 

[BobKowalski]

Whats the problem? I've not looked into any of that but it looks like the logical sequence in a time restricted negotiation? I'm sure there will be overlap - we should be finding areas of agreement first in any case to get those matters out the way and save time for what could be tricky negotiations.

Should the Rep. not take a special part in these talks more than the other EU countries considering the NI border and CTA? Brexit inevitably means the Rep. have tricky talks too, not just with us (I think we'd be mutual on matters though) but other EU countries.

There is no problem. Except Davis, May et al spent months arguing/threatening the opposite. Davis said last month that the EU's proposed sequencing would provoke 'the row of the summer'. Instead they caved in the first 5 minutes. Some fucking row.

What it demonstrates is the the UK is going to get dry fucked repeatedly over the next two years which will surprise no one with half a brain. Admittedly this does rule out our Brexit negotiating team.

 

[adrianr]

On the subject of Davis, more scary reading,

https://musealoudblog.wordpress.com/2017/05/22/david-davis-brexit-negotiations/

 

[Cheadle_hulmeBlue]

But fear not, as long as we keep them immigrants out and sing Rule Britannia loud enough everything will be bloody marvelous.

Purely anecdotal but nearly every leaver I've spoken too since a few months after the vote, mostly my dad's side of the family, are all coming to the realisation they may have dropped a massive bollock. On the other hand I know not a single remainer who 'just wants us to get on with it' and leave. Another couple of years of the reality really sinking in during these negotiations and by the time Davis comes out with what will certainly be a bollocks deal the majority will want no part of it.

yep everyone who voted leave want all immigrants out...... i know remain voters who wished they voted voted leave, so whats your point ? its literally the first day and most of things discussed were more then likely the first things to get sorted out.

 

[adrianr]

yep everyone who voted leave wants all immigrants out...... i know remain voters who wished they voted voted leave, so whats your point ? its literally the first day and most of things discussed were more then likely the first things to get sorted out.

I would *love* to hear the reasoning of someone who voted remain who now wants to leave. I don't suppose you have an example? I cannot think of a single thing that has transpired since the vote that hasn't been along the lines of leaving looking like a huge mistake.

 

[Cheadle_hulmeBlue]

I would *love* to hear the reasoning of someone who voted remain who now wants to leave. I don't suppose you have an example? I cannot think of a single thing that has transpired since the vote that hasn't been along the lines of leaving looking like a huge mistake.

the people i know who voted remain were on the fence about remaining anyway. its not as if the eu is some amazing thing is it. you always thought it was a mistake anyway, even if talks go amazing and we get a good deal you wouldn't be happy.

 

[BobKowalski]

yep everyone who voted leave want all immigrants out...... i know remain voters who wished they voted voted leave, so whats your point ? its literally the first day and most of things discussed were more then likely the first things to get sorted out.

Really? They were more than likely the first things to get sorted out?

So why did Davis reject this now agreed timetable only a month ago? He stated it massively disadvantaged the UK. Does it no longer disadvantage the UK? Was he lying a month ago or now? Or is he a clueless idiot who confidently stated that within months of a vote to leave he would have signed a huge bi-lateral trade deal with Germany.

Spoiler. Germany cannot sign bi-lateral trade deals.

 

[adrianr]

the people i know who voted remain were on the fence about remaining anyway. its not as if the eu is some amazing thing is it. you always thought it was a mistake anyway, even if talks go amazing and we get a good deal you wouldn't be happy.

I think you may have me confused with another poster. I have no care about being in the EU for the sake of being in the EU, it's a means to an end (I could qualify this with other opinions but I'm posting from my phone between missus trips to the bar with hands covered in sun cream, so you'll have to forgive me). If we get a deal for leaving that puts us in a better position than remaining in the EU would, I won't call it a bad deal because we're no longer technically 'in'. Not a cat in hells chance that is going to happen though. It will be spun 50 ways to Sunday with both sides in the end claiming victory but it will all come out in the wash, and the reality is we're not going to get a better deal for leaving than if we just stayed. The only argument you can make is the one of very far into the future; How freeing us from EU shackles could catalyze us into prosperous trade with the rest of the world. Don't see it myself but it's a more likely argument than the EU letting us leave in a better position than staying put.

If they were on the fence what tipped them over to leave? Must be a reason?

 

[Gaylord du Bois]

No, you're right.
The EU are shitting themselves.
Are they fuck.
More like pissing themselves.
Laughing at our stupidity.

 

[Cheadle_hulmeBlue]

Really? They were more than likely the first things to get sorted out?

So why did Davis reject this now agreed timetable only a month ago? He stated it massively disadvantaged the UK. Does it no longer disadvantage the UK? Was he lying a month ago or now? Or is he a clueless idiot who confidently stated that within months of a vote to leave he would have signed a huge bi-lateral trade deal with Germany.

Spoiler. Germany cannot sign bi-lateral trade deals.

davis and the tories tried to get a different timetable, but i would have thought so, especially eu/british citizens rights.i think that issue in particular could be sorted out quite fast. timetables change, i dont really see it as some major negative thing or disaster that your trying to make out. we probably will sign trade deals with countries all around the world, but its day one of negotiations so we've got a while yet.

 

[sir baconface]

It has just become some kind of sacred cow that we are made to worship. The government explicitly asked for the referendum to be advisory,it is therefore non binding anyway.
The Tories have jumped on it because they see it as an opportunity to neutralise the fractious question of Europe, which has been a thorn in their sides and source of party division for decades, once and for all. In framing it as upholding democracy rather than political opportunism, they have effectively castrated anybody who would argue against Brexit for fear of being labelled as undemocratic and going against the wishes of the electorate. This is why every politician that talks about Brexit starts off by saying " of course we are leaving the EU" and " of course the result of the referendum must be respected" before going on to say what a bad idea it is.
This to me is a dereliction of duty and a cowardly betrayal of the futures of our children for party political purposes rather than acting on what is best for the future of the country.

So they hold a referendum and then say "fcuk the result; it was only advisory and we know best"?

Think about it for just a second.

 

[cibaman]

davis and the tories tried to get a different timetable, but i would have thought so, especially eu/british citizens rights.i think that issue in particular could be sorted out quite fast. timetables change, i dont really see it as some major negative thing or disaster that your trying to make out. we probably will sign trade deals with countries all around the world, but its day one of negotiations so we've got a while yet.

I think the about turn is mainly because, since the election, the tories no longer have an agreed view on what sort of trade deal they want and are trying to buy time to arrive at a consensus among their MPs. We're just not in a position to start discussing trade. Which is quite scary.

 

[BobKowalski]

davis and the tories tried to get a different timetable, but i would have thought so, especially eu/british citizens rights.i think that issue in particular could be sorted out quite fast. timetables change, i dont really see it as some major negative thing or disaster that your trying to make out. we probably will sign trade deals with countries all around the world, but its day one of negotiations so we've got a while yet.

The negativity is down to the UK's insistence on denying the bleeding obvious until reality smacks them round the head. May/Davis seemed to believe that they could get France and Germany to agree on parallel negotiations which the UK was repeatedly told was never going to happen. May allegedly asked Macron last week for his support for the UK's position and was rebuffed (again).

The other aspect is did we capitulate so quickly because the GE has left the Govt in an even weaker position? Are we going to agree to things for expediency sake given there is no guarantee the Govt will be around in 3 or 6 months time meaning we can't afford the time to argue issues properly? This does not bode well for the UK going forward.

 

[BobKowalski]

So they hold a referendum and then say "fcuk the result; it was only advisory and we know best"?

Think about it for just a second.

It was close. A quick statement that there was 'no clear mandate and we carry on as before'. Works for me :)

 

[Manc in London]

But fear not, as long as we keep them immigrants out and sing Rule Britannia loud enough everything will be bloody marvelous.

Purely anecdotal but nearly every leaver I've spoken too since a few months after the vote, mostly my dad's side of the family, are all coming to the realisation they may have dropped a massive bollock. On the other hand I know not a single remainer who 'just wants us to get on with it' and leave. Another couple of years of the reality really sinking in during these negotiations and by the time Davis comes out with what will certainly be a bollocks deal the majority will want no part of it.

Unlikely but I hope we come out with a bad deal that the Govt would take to a referendum, with the end result being the status quo.

Surely that is why Davis is leading the negotiations. It's not as if that buffoon would be given such an important role.

 

[Cheadle_hulmeBlue]

The negativity is down to the UK's insistence on denying the bleeding obvious until reality smacks them round the head. May/Davis seemed to believe that they could get France and Germany to agree on parallel negotiations which the UK was repeatedly told was never going to happen. May allegedly asked Macron last week for his support for the UK's position and was rebuffed (again).

The other aspect is did we capitulate so quickly because the GE has left the Govt in an even weaker position? Are we going to agree to things for expediency sake given there is no guarantee the Govt will be around in 3 or 6 months time meaning we can't afford the time to argue issues properly? This does not bode well for the UK going forward.

tbf the government were trying to get citizens rights sorted out last summer and the eu wouldn't agree to anything then, so we did want to get it sorted out pretty quickly. surely if we are talking about the irish border then trade will be discussed, especially concerning ireland and northern ireland ?. i think its hard to judge tbh we could be in a good position in a years time. who knows, its hard to predict right now.

 

[Cheadle_hulmeBlue]

Unlikely but I hope we come out with a bad deal that the Govt would take to a referendum, with the end result being the status quo.

Surely that is why Davis is leading the negotiations. It's not as if that buffoon would be given such an important role.

so you want a bad deal ?. I have suggested and others have that some remainers want the economy to fail and want the worst possible deal to say ' i told you so' and that we stay in the eu. why would you want a bad deal, where we could end up completely outside the eu in a terrible position.