Article 50/Brexit Negotiations

[jonmcity]

That's why I want to knwo why the EU hasn't done more to promote investment into our manufacturing to boost those figures. In Germany it's shy of 30%, why not here?

Don't Think you can blame the EU. Its our UK Governments that have under invested. We had a policy that third world countries can make it, with low wages and no working rights. We will invest in the same companies and take all the revenue to service our economies. Not very nice, we were even willing to allow great swathes of the UK to become deserted to allow this policy to proceed.

 

[BobKowalski]

I've always been about the liberty side of the discussion. Everyone else wants to focus on the financial implications, which is fine, it's an important subject. But never try and claim that my purpose in voting wasn't for the reasons i've just specified. You don't know me.

Thatcher's government was 27 years ago, you need to address why subsequent governments haven't done enough to promote, invest or more importantly what was stopping them. We've had a Labour Government, a coalition and a Conservative Government in that time. If manufacturing losses are such a great concern to both parties, why have they done nothing to address the syphoning of our industries to other EU member states? Why has the EU done nothing to promote industry in the UK? The agricultural aspects? Because that's not the UK's role; were sales and finances, Germany is the industrial powerhouse and the meditteranean and Eastern Europe regions are agriculture. We're not people, we're 'workers', drones. You want to work in industry? Miove to Germany, that's what the freedom of movement is for. Forget your cultures, your 'hometown traditions', you're Soviet, er... Europeans now.

Actually the EU has invested in industry in deprived areas of the UK. Northern Ireland in particular as part of the peace process. But clearly you see that EU as some lizard inspired plot to reshape the UK and eradicate our culture whilst ignoring the impact and decisions taken by the successive domestic Govts.

So let's face facts. We are talking tinfoil batshit crazy talk here aren't we?

 

[Metal Biker]

They didn't fail to do so. They did so, but the Leave campaign called it 'Project Fear'.

Project Fear is in reference to the doom scenarios of leaving.

What were the long term benefits of staying that the various remain campaigns put forward? There were none, they were too focused on the dangers of leaving. So they failed to produce a positive outlook not just for the UK staying in the Eu, but the EU itself. The migrant crisis, the refugee crisis, the economic crisis, the Crimea crisis, at the time the EU were being roundly criticised from both sides for failing to do enough and were looking inept. Little was done by remainers to provide a vision of confidence in the EU. On that aspect they failed.

 

[geoff clipp]

Actually the EU has invested in industry in deprived areas of the UK. Northern Ireland in particular as part of the peace process. But clearly you see that EU as some lizard inspired plot to reshape the UK and eradicate our culture whilst ignoring the impact and decisions taken by the successive domestic Govts.

So let's face facts. We are talking tinfoil batshit crazy talk here aren't we?

The thing I find doubly frustrating is that a lot of the people claiming we didn't get enough out of the EU, were the same people routinely voting for UKIP MEPs to represent us there. A bunch of people essentially on the fiddle, never bothering to turn up for work and doing nothing to help the people back home get the best that they could out of the EU. Like you say, the EU did actually put money into deprived communities but I expect there were a lot of missed opportunities on account of the fact we were sending reprobates like Nigel Farage there to represent us.

 

[Chris in London]

Project Fear is in reference to the doom scenarios of leaving.

What were the long term benefits of staying that the various remain campaigns put forward? There were none, they were too focused on the dangers of leaving. So they failed to produce a positive outlook not just for the UK staying in the Eu, but the EU itself. The migrant crisis, the refugee crisis, the economic crisis, the Crimea crisis, at the time the EU were being roundly criticised from both sides for failing to do enough and were looking inept. Little was done by remainers to provide a vision of confidence in the EU. On that aspect they failed.

The benefits of remaining and the dangers of leaving are opposite sides of the same coin. They are one and the same thing. Its like saying 'what are the benefits of not cutting your left leg off with a rusty saw' - before dismissing an inability to run, excruciating pain, permanent deprivation of your left leg and the danger of septicaemia as 'project fear'.

 

[Metal Biker]

The benefits of remaining and the dangers of leaving are opposite sides of the same coin. They are one and the same thing. Its like saying 'what are the benefits of not cutting your left leg off with a rusty saw' - before dismissing an inability to run, excruciating pain, permanent deprivation of your left leg and the danger of septicaemia as 'project fear'.

How about the fact the leg is gangrenous?

 

[geoff clipp]

How about the fact the leg is gangrenous?

Do we really need to use a rusty saw though?

 

[BobKowalski]

The thing I find doubly frustrating is that a lot of the people claiming we didn't get enough out of the EU, were the same people routinely voting for UKIP MEPs to represent us there. A bunch of people essentially on the fiddle, never bothering to turn up for work and doing nothing to help the people back home get the best that they could out of the EU. Like you say, the EU did actually put money into deprived communities but I expect there were a lot of missed opportunities on account of the fact we were sending reprobates like Nigel Farage there to represent us.

Yeah I never got that. Side note I have a lot of family in Hull and we are all meeting up in August as part of the City of Culture celebration ( yeah ok don't laugh). All largely voted leave. All like the improvements to Hull centre. They all say what has the EU ever done for us. I mean you are literally standing in the middle of something they have done for you. Total disconnect. Weird.

 

[jonmcity]

Yeah I never got that. Side note I have a lot of family in Hull and we are all meeting up in August as part of the City of Culture celebration ( yeah ok don't laugh). All largely voted leave. All like the improvements to Hull centre. They all say what has the EU ever done for us. I mean you are literally standing in the middle of something they have done for you. Total disconnect. Weird.

We under estimate the effect of a Murdoch media, on the ill educated. Its just like those Rag fans, They believe what they are told to believe.

 

[Metal Biker]

Actually the EU has invested in industry in deprived areas of the UK. Northern Ireland in particular as part of the peace process. But clearly you see that EU as some lizard inspired plot to reshape the UK and eradicate our culture whilst ignoring the impact and decisions taken by the successive domestic Govts.

So let's face facts. We are talking tinfoil batshit crazy talk here aren't we?

It's difficult to debate with close minded people. A bit like those who see the Monarchy as lizard people, the Tories as inherently evil, 'right wing' means Nazi, liberal means 'on the fence', Labour are Commies. Leavers are all uneducated racists, believing a lie on a bus.

Are the actions of our government influenced by EU regulations preventing them from taking better courses of action as it would undermine the authority and supremacy of the EU? The EU's only really been on this federalism 'Super Europe' kick since the mid 2000's. I liked the EU before then. Hence why I stated, the EU is not what it once was, it refused to listen to europe-wide calls for reform, cementing it's authority. I cannot support authoritarism.

 

[Metal Biker]

Do we really need to use a rusty saw though?

If it's the only one available, you may have to. You've seen the film 127 hours? The guy with his arm trapped so he cuts it off with only his penknife? If he'd had another more effective cutting tool option he'd have used it. The end result however is still the same.

But here's the thing, we DO have other options than the ones the 'doomers' are stating.

 

[jonmcity]

Agreed the EU needed to change, Federal for those that wanted it. Trading block for those that didn't. You can only force change from within. Now we will end up with a federal Europe on our doorstep, that we have no influence over. They will try and take over London's influence on finance and take manufacturing jobs away from the UK.
We will be treated as a competitor and not a partner in trade.

 

[Saddleworth2]

The benefits of remaining and the dangers of leaving are opposite sides of the same coin. They are one and the same thing. Its like saying 'what are the benefits of not cutting your left leg off with a rusty saw' - before dismissing an inability to run, excruciating pain, permanent deprivation of your left leg and the danger of septicaemia as 'project fear'.

Brilliant! That made me chuckle. God loves a trier though.

 

[MillionMilesAway]

That's why I want to knwo why the EU hasn't done more to promote investment into our manufacturing to boost those figures. In Germany it's shy of 30%, why not here?

I don't think that's anything to do with the EU. That's national government strategy on what to aim at.
A lot of why our %age is that low is simply the strength and value of the service economy. I think I saw we are about 10th biggest manufacturers by value, just not by %age (not going to look for proof of that!)

You accept that we do not have a manufacturing economy then?

 

[Saddleworth2]

If it's the only one available, you may have to. You've seen the film 127 hours? The guy with his arm trapped so he cuts it off with only his penknife? If he'd had another more effective cutting tool option he'd have used it. The end result however is still the same.

But here's the thing, we DO have other options than the ones the 'doomers' are stating.

so run those by me again. What are the options for single market and customs regulations (including the irish problem) that you speak of? What would you do about the divorce bill too please.

 

[MillionMilesAway]

Project Fear is in reference to the doom scenarios of leaving.

What were the long term benefits of staying that the various remain campaigns put forward? There were none, they were too focused on the dangers of leaving. So they failed to produce a positive outlook not just for the UK staying in the Eu, but the EU itself. The migrant crisis, the refugee crisis, the economic crisis, the Crimea crisis, at the time the EU were being roundly criticised from both sides for failing to do enough and were looking inept. Little was done by remainers to provide a vision of confidence in the EU. On that aspect they failed.

benefit of remain = not suffering any ill-effects of leaving.

You don't ask a man on a cliff edge to justify why he should not jump.

 

[Metal Biker]

I don't think that's anything to do with the EU. That's national government strategy on what to aim at.
A lot of why our %age is that low is simply the strength and value of the service economy. I think I saw we are about 10th biggest manufacturers by value, just not by %age (not going to look for proof of that!)

You accept that we do not have a manufacturing economy then?

I accept it wasn't what it once was, no.

 

[Saddleworth2]

That's why I want to knwo why the EU hasn't done more to promote investment into our manufacturing to boost those figures. In Germany it's shy of 30%, why not here?

Because the German government have created an environment where they thrive and grow. Also, the quality of those companies and their products. BMW, Porsche etc etc.

 

[inbetween]

Fascinated to understand why another Referendum should 'be off the cards'.

This is a monumental decision which thus far has been decided by one relatively narrow vote. Approx 600,000 votes the other way and the result would have been different.

I can see no good reason why there shouldn't be another vote. The leavers want democracy, so let's see how that democracy works out once people are faced with the consequences of this ridiculous decision.

Democracy isn't about making a decision for better or worse, we weren't asked this is the bad decision and this is the good one and here is the evidence so take your pick. No-one picked the right or wrong decision because that is a matter of opinion and perspective. There is no evidence we will be better or worse off just yet and that information was required before the referendum to have any point or weight. Saying we should have another referendum because this is a bad decision for whatever reason takes the whole point out of giving people the choice a year ago.

As I said previously, for some this was not about results it was about being able to do things like gain the 100% ability to make our own laws and be in control, you cannot argue that leaving the EU does not achieve what those people voted for. That is surely a good thing and for many it would of been the only thing that mattered so you simply cannot say that for those people it is a ridiculous decision.

Your opinion on whether this will be bad for us is no doubt linked to the economy and what the power brokers in the city constantly tell us but they represent 7.2% of the take. In my mind I think for many of the real businesses it will be better, it means the UK can do business for the benefit of the UK and not the EU. Look at the US, they can make laws and orient themselves for their own benefit, it is why the US has lodged 200+ WTO complaints for it's companies whilst we aren't allowed to lodge any. Is it beneficial that we trust a Frenchman or Dutchman to work on behalf of us??

Leaving means we are able to change the country so that the company I work for can compete at an advantage compared to those in Europe. Our best market is Europe because of the trading conditions indeed but Europe is potless. If we could sign deals abroad we would do far better but we can't, this is why the majority of our trade is with Europe, we simply have no choice.

It isn't all bad, it will be to some degree for companies who trade with the EU but that isn't all of them by any stretch of the imagination. As a large economy what disadvantage do we have to being in complete and total control of how we do business with others? I don't think we will do better in the short term because it will take time but in the long term, who knows?

 

[Metal Biker]

so run those by me again. What are the options for single market and customs regulations (including the irish problem) that you speak of? What would you do about the divorce bill too please.

Told you, i'll let the money men and financial 'experts' on here discuss that side of Brexit and hope that they can shed some light on those of us less versed in those issues.
As I said, my vote was not based on the financial implications; i'm already on the lowest possible pay in the service industry. I'm not going to notice anything drastic.