Danilo

[domalino]

Did he have to move on because he could displace Iniesta and Xavi, like many other Barcelona youth players, yes he did.

No, he left because of Fabregas, and if you ask 100 Barcelona fans if it was a mistake, they'll all say yes.

But that's completely irrelevant to the point, isn't it? Because the point is that if you want to, an untested kid can play 65 times in 3 years in possibly the best club side ever assembled, competing with 2 players who were 2nd and 3rd in the Ballon d'or.

 

[tommo74]

Then you don't want kids in the team. Full Stop.

Do you think Iniesta improved Barcelona when he got his debut in 2002? No, he didn't. Hes spent a few years as a sub, building a little bit of experience, improving until he got to the point where he improved them. Then he played anywhere they needed a decent player, then when he was about 23 he finally nailed down a starting position because he was better than anyone else in that position.

So did Mbappe not improve Monaco?

 

[domalino]

It swings both ways, the same argument can be used that they were so dominant they had nothing to lose throwing a kid in. At the moment we're are in between both of those positions. Not dominant enough to give a kid a chance and not weak enough to give a kid a chance.

One of the reasons I wanted us to significantly strengthen this summer is because it is easier to integrate kids into a winning side. Last season we were scraping through games and you can't throw inexperienced kids into that environment. However, hopefully we get a few 3 or 4-0 leads this season and then it's easier to give players like Roberts and Tosin a chance to impress.

So I give an example of them bringing kids through when they're doing badly, and the reply is "Oh it's easy when you're doing badly".

I give an examle of them bringing kids through when they're doing well, and the reply is "Oh it's easy when you're doing well".

I see you've come up with some very nice mental gymnastics there.

 

[ninjamonkey]

Kids are NEVER ready.

If Maffeo is considered not good enough, then that's.Pep's decision.

But no kid will ever come.through at any club anywhere unless.someone allows.them the opportunity to learn, by getting them on the pitch.

Maffeo was ready for that stage two years ago.

I'd argue the truly elite are and that's the level we want/need. I'll take your point though and say that's exactly where the loan system comes in. We're too big of a club now to take those unnecessary risks.

Why risk having him as our back up right back this season only to find out he's simply not ready and we drop points because of it? That would be for what? there's no reason to rush, we can and seemingly will wait until they've shown they're ready. We can loan him out, have a team that isn't under the kind of pressure and expectation to win everything that we're under take the risk for us and if he's good enough, fantastic, we bring him back in and he's ready to hit the ground running in our squad. If not, we dodged a potentially very costly bullet and we wait for somebody that is of the standard we require.

we have these kids tied down on long contracts, it's not a case of it's now or never, let them prove themselves then and only then will they get the chance based on merit not on a hunch.

maffeo is good enough and if we put faith in him he will become one of the best right backs in the world, i want what's best for the team in the long run as well i would rather develop a player who can become great and stay with us and serve us for years to come than sign some bang average 26 year old.

In your opinion he's good enough, which is fine, but seemingly Pep, all his backroom staff and the development team seem to think otherwise. If he is good enough, what harm is an extra year or two away to show that at progressively higher levels going to do? Danilo isn't going to stop the development of Maffeo nor is any other signing going to stop any other kid developing, they'll do their developing elsewhere with no risk to our team and if they develop how we'd like they'll come back.

For arguments sake, lets say Maffeo has a storming season at Girona, performs at the level you think he's at and proves himself to be one of if not the best young right back around, he simply comes back next season and pushes out Danilo or Walker, whoever proves to be the weakest. We've shown many times in recent times we're not afraid to dump expensive signings if something better comes along, it's not like we're going to turn around and say, we've got a kid that's proven they're better than what we've got but we can't use him because we paid a lot of money for these two, we'll drop one in an instant.

 

[domalino]

So did Mbappe not improve Monaco?

How is that at all relevant?

No one is saying "Kids never improve a team", I'm saying "Kid's don't have to improve a team to get a chance", and at most good teams, they don't improve the team immediately, even the ones who go on to become the best players in the world.

 

[Proy]

It swings both ways, the same argument can be used that they were so dominant they had nothing to lose throwing a kid in. At the moment we're are in between both of those positions. Not dominant enough to give a kid a chance and not weak enough to give a kid a chance.

One of the reasons I wanted us to significantly strengthen this summer is because it is easier to integrate kids into a winning side. Last season we were scraping through games and you can't throw inexperienced kids into that environment. However, hopefully we get a few 3 or 4-0 leads this season and then it's easier to give players like Roberts and Tosin a chance to impress.

That's a brilliant post.

We are not in a position to currently integrate kids. I think some of our fans think we are further on than we actually are. Where we aspire to be, when we get there, then the academy will have an opportunity.

 

[OrigamiNinja]

Like most, I want to see youth given a chance but Maffeo was shipped out when full back wise we were at breaking point and then this Summer the club/Pep have decided to spend £80m on right backs. If he has been unable to get himself into this team over the past 12 months, I very much doubt he ever will. Rightly or wrongly Maffeo has 0% chance of making it at this club.

 

[tommo74]

How is that at all relevant?

No one is saying "Kids never improve a team", I'm saying "Kid's don't have to improve a team to get a chance", and at most good teams, they don't improve the team immediately, even the ones who go on to become the best players in the world.

Sorry mate misread your post

 

[domalino]

That's a brilliant post.

We are not in a position to currently integrate kids. I think some of our fans think we are further on than we actually are. Where we aspire to be, when we get there, then the academy will have an opportunity.

No, there will never be this Utopian time when the club is stable and we're winning and everyone's happy and kids get handed out chances because "what's the harm!?".

You're setting a standard no other club in the world ever sets, just like the people who think kids need 10 year experience in a top division before they can get given a chance.

 

[Hart of the Matter]

Fernando is the player we bought, no more, no less.

He was bad in his first year when playing through a groin injury that required surgery.

He was a big part of our CL semi-final run

Last season he played well whenever he came on, including some monster performances like Barcelona, when he completely pinned them back in their own half by winning the ball back so high and so quickly.

He cost £10m, he wasn't a marquee signing and he's not been awful. It's a shame so many fans, particularly on here, choose to judge him solely based on a time he was playing through pain with daily injections just to get on the pitch.

Good post sir!

 

[blueparrot]

Like most, I want to see youth given a chance but Maffeo was shipped out when full back wise we were at breaking point and then this Summer the club/Pep have decided to spend £80m on right backs. If he has been unable to get himself into this team over the past 12 months, I very much doubt he ever will. Rightly or wrongly Maffeo has 0% chance of making it at this club.

If he plays a full season with Girona, either we will bring him back or we won't depending how he performs. If we don't we will be able to tell if we are potentially making a mistake if after a season in La Liga one of the top Spanish teams are trying to buy him. I don't see how being a fringe player for us is better for developing and monitoring a player than playing first team La Liga football for Girona.

 

[Proy]

Like most, I want to see youth given a chance but Maffeo was shipped out when full back wise we were at breaking point and then this Summer the club/Pep have decided to spend £80m on right backs. If he has been unable to get himself into this team over the past 12 months, I very much doubt he ever will. Rightly or wrongly Maffeo has 0% chance of making it at this club.

Correct. And it's that way because we need experience to move to the next level.

Maffeo has no chance.

 

[MCFC1993]

So I give an example of them bringing kids through when they're doing badly, and the reply is "Oh it's easy when you're doing badly".

I give an examle of them bringing kids through when they're doing well, and the reply is "Oh it's easy when you're doing well".

I see you've come up with some very nice mental gymnastics there.

To be honest it's a bit of a catch 22 situation, it probably does look like a bit of a cop out I admit but it's a risk reward scenario where the risk is just too high at the moment.

However, if we start smashing teams and not bringing on the kids for some game time then it is a problem. One of my biggest criticisms of Pellegrini was his persistence in bringing on players like Demichelis when we had a significant leads (3 goals) in matches.




Anyway happy to discuss it in an appropriate thread, as I expect the Mods to be in here soon expecting things to get back on topic.

 

[Proy]

No, there will never be this Utopian time when the club is stable and we're winning and everyone's happy and kids get handed out chances because "what's the harm!?".

You're setting a standard no other club in the world ever sets, just like the people who think kids need 10 year experience in a top division before they can get given a chance.

We could go on all day.

Do you think Maffeo is good enough?

 

[blueparrot]

No, there will never be this Utopian time when the club is stable and we're winning and everyone's happy and kids get handed out chances because "what's the harm!?".

You're setting a standard no other club in the world ever sets, just like the people who think kids need 10 year experience in a top division before they can get given a chance.

Would Kane be where he is now without his loans, not in my opinion. Would Deli Alli be where he is now without regular football at MK Dons, again don't think so.There are more examples of players needing loans than those going straight into the first team, at least at champions league level teams.

 

[domalino]

We could go on all day.

Do you think Maffeo is good enough?

I think he's good enough to get a chance.

 

[BlueDeadHead]

If he's not kicked on after a big money move, why are we giving them their money back and taking on the risk ourselves? Nobody does that with our bunch. Rightly so. I don't know a great deal but it feels like not making an impact after a 30m move would reduce your value?

Savic plays for one of the top 3 teams on the planet according to UEFA rankings.

 

[domalino]

Would Kane be where he is now without his loans, not in my opinion. Would Deli Alli be where he is now without regular football at MK Dons, again don't think so.There are more examples of players needing loans than those going straight into the first team, at least at champions league level teams.

What does Dele Alli have to do with anything? He's never been on loan.

Kane is one example of a player coming back after loan, there are a shit load more examples of world class players not going on loan, but getting drip fed into their club team.

 

[OrigamiNinja]

If he plays a full season with Girona, either we will bring him back or we won't depending how he performs. If we don't we will be able to tell if we are potentially making a mistake if after a season in La Liga one of the top Spanish teams are trying to buy him. I don't see how being a fringe player for us is better for developing and monitoring a player than playing first team La Liga football for Girona.

I think for most clubs what you have described would ring true, I just have my doubts where City are concerned. We have have developed somewhat of a habit of sending players on loan, who do well and then still don't get a chance at the club.

 

[BlueDeadHead]

I wonder what knock effect this has on our other transfer business? I think its fair to say that buying Danilo instead of signing Alvez means we are spending 30m more than we expected to, on the 2nd right back.

And possibly not signing a second LB.