Article 50/Brexit Negotiations

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No. Whilst there will always be problems and regions/countries doing less well than others (just as in the US states vary in their economic and social performance) this has little to do with the EU. These problems are inherent within the structure of the countries themselves. The Euro does magnify some of these problems but the problems in Greece for example were the product of Greece itself. The problems were always there but membership of the Euro magnified these problems and bought them to a head.

The UK's problem of say stagnant wage growth and austerity are UK problems not EU problems. Only Greece and ourselves showed a decline in real terms in wage growth. These are UK problems which we blame on the EU because it suited domestic politicians to blame it on the faceless men of Brussels yada, yada. It is always someone's fault never ours is the mother of its the EU fault we can't get a deal.

And we will never escape the EU. It's impossible. You can be out of it but never escape it. You can be out but we will always be in it. Our light bulbs and vacuum cleaners will be forever linked to the EU. Three regions have the heft and clout to decide and impose standards. The US, China and the EU. And we are in Europe and they will set the standards which we will adopt. We have no choice. If we do a deal on the NI border (which we want) it will end with NI getting special economic status. And if it works then Scotland and Wales will do the same. We will be surrounded by the EU and if we want to play in the EU backyard we will have to pay like Switzerland does.

I'll go back to May's big win on Japan's trade deal. Reality is like everything else it will be done on the back of the EU. And if we want things on the back of the EU then there will be a price. Everything we want will have a price. Brexit is not taking back control. It is surrendering it.

The trade deals we make will be varied and will be with who we choose to make them with therein lies the difference. We have always made deals to get trade deals it doesn't mean we aren't making them though. The slogan that Brexit is surrendering control is a nonsense mate and you know it.
What puzzles me more and more each day is how the left and the liberals support globalism, maybe it's because more people from the left and liberals are getting what they want out of globalism ie cheaper goods globe trotting vlogging capabilities and aren't really in it for the ideals those politics extol.
 
This is like a snowball of shit rolling down a shit-covered hill rather fast.

Which is exactly what everybody sensible and informed said it would be before that fucking moronic referendum.

As every day goes by my conviction grows that this can not and will not happen and we look back on this in 20 years as the time the country nearly lost its mind and it's future.
Disaster.
Aston Martin announces £500m UK-Japan deal ttp://www.bbc.com/news/uk-wales-41093121


Weak pound boosts export hopes as a record number of London's fast-growing businesses are confident about the future http://www.cityam.com/271009/weak-pound-boosts-export-hopes-record-number-londons-fast/amp

Business confidence at record high amongst UK's growth companies http://www.ecipartners.com/news-and-insights/news/2017/2017-eci-growth-survey

UK manufacturing defies expectations to hit four-month high http://www.telegraph.co.uk/business...ring-defies-expectations-hit-four-month-high/

Weaker sterling more than offsets risk of WTO tariffs, says UK manufacturer https://www.ft.com/content/d8846ce0-88c0-11e7-bf50-e1c239b45787
 
The trade deals we make will be varied and will be with who we choose to make them with therein lies the difference. We have always made deals to get trade deals it doesn't mean we aren't making them though. The slogan that Brexit is surrendering control is a nonsense mate and you know it.
What puzzles me more and more each day is how the left and the liberals support globalism, maybe it's because more people from the left and liberals are getting what they want out of globalism ie cheaper goods globe trotting vlogging capabilities and aren't really in it for the ideals those politics extol.

Globalisation transfers wealth from richer countries to poorer countries. It benefits large corporations in that they access a cheaper job pool but nevertheless it creates jobs in poorer countries at the expense of richer ones. This flow also sees an increase in living standards which in turn creates disposable income which in turn further stimulates the economy. The premise is that the increase in living standards will also feedback to create demand in the richer countries albeit service industry orientated rather than manufacturing. Globalisation shrinks the world, shares wealth and reduces borders all of which I would broadly support.

If we want trade deals with developing markets they will want two thing above all. Liberalisation of immigration policy and a market to dump cheap goods on. Good luck with the former and kiss goodbye to what remains of our major manufacturing industry with the latter. Hiding behind the skirts of the EU by piggybacking on their trade deals is the best we seem to be aiming for and (astonishingly) this is seen as a victory. So that's what a deal with Japan and UK that is 10 years hence? And negotiated by the EU? Do they consider the UK in the deal when it comes to the negotiation? What's in it for the EU? Do we pay them a fortune for doing so? Do we have to accept EU standards? Etc etc. Taking back control yeah right.
 
Disaster.
Aston Martin announces £500m UK-Japan deal ttp://www.bbc.com/news/uk-wales-41093121


Weak pound boosts export hopes as a record number of London's fast-growing businesses are confident about the future http://www.cityam.com/271009/weak-pound-boosts-export-hopes-record-number-londons-fast/amp

Business confidence at record high amongst UK's growth companies http://www.ecipartners.com/news-and-insights/news/2017/2017-eci-growth-survey

UK manufacturing defies expectations to hit four-month high http://www.telegraph.co.uk/business...ring-defies-expectations-hit-four-month-high/

Weaker sterling more than offsets risk of WTO tariffs, says UK manufacturer https://www.ft.com/content/d8846ce0-88c0-11e7-bf50-e1c239b45787
LOL.
A few small companies and one UK manufacturer are 'confident' based on a weak £.
Wow!
Oh by the way, it's non tariff barriers that are the main problem you might like to tell your manufacturer.
 
No. Whilst there will always be problems and regions/countries doing less well than others (just as in the US states vary in their economic and social performance) this has little to do with the EU. These problems are inherent within the structure of the countries themselves. The Euro does magnify some of these problems but the problems in Greece for example were the product of Greece itself. The problems were always there but membership of the Euro magnified these problems and bought them to a head.

The UK's problem of say stagnant wage growth and austerity are UK problems not EU problems. Only Greece and ourselves showed a decline in real terms in wage growth. These are UK problems which we blame on the EU because it suited domestic politicians to blame it on the faceless men of Brussels yada, yada. It is always someone's fault never ours is the mother of its the EU fault we can't get a deal.

And we will never escape the EU. It's impossible. You can be out of it but never escape it. You can be out but we will always be in it. Our light bulbs and vacuum cleaners will be forever linked to the EU. Three regions have the heft and clout to decide and impose standards. The US, China and the EU. And we are in Europe and they will set the standards which we will adopt. We have no choice. If we do a deal on the NI border (which we want) it will end with NI getting special economic status. And if it works then Scotland and Wales will do the same. We will be surrounded by the EU and if we want to play in the EU backyard we will have to pay like Switzerland does.

I'll go back to May's big win on Japan's trade deal. Reality is like everything else it will be done on the back of the EU. And if we want things on the back of the EU then there will be a price. Everything we want will have a price. Brexit is not taking back control. It is surrendering it.
It's not a big win for Mavis on her cut and paste trade deal with Japan.
EU economy is ten times the size of UK and they have more clout in negotiations.
Japan will not agree to some of the concessions they made with the EU in a UK trade deal and they will demand more from the UK particularly as we will be desperate.
Same goes for all the other countries where we are currently riding on the back of EU trade deals.
If Foxy thinks this part of his job involves a photocopier and some typex he is sadly mistaken.
 
1st time i've looked at this thread, may look a bit deeper. one thing some people are whinging about is the low value of sterling against the euro and blaming it on brexit, yet, not even considering the bonus of better exports, however i digress, but several years ago the pound was virtually 1to1 with the euro and no one said a word, the moaners today are just complaining because their spanish hoildays are more expensive
 
It's not a big win for Mavis on her cut and paste trade deal with Japan.
EU economy is ten times the size of UK and they have more clout in negotiations.
Japan will not agree to some of the concessions they made with the EU in a UK trade deal and they will demand more from the UK particularly as we will be desperate.
Same goes for all the other countries where we are currently riding on the back of EU trade deals.
If Foxy thinks this part of his job involves a photocopier and some typex he is sadly mistaken.

I knew I should have put 'big win' in quotes...

And yes if Japan concedes on something that benefits the UK because they want some concessions that involve benefits for themselves elsewhere in the EU why would they concede them in a separate trade deal with the UK given the EU is no longer a factor in any UK/Japan deal?

I still don't get how it will work timeframe wise given the negotiations for a Japan/EU will exceed any transistion period between the UK and the EU so why will any UK considerations be a factor and if they aren't a factor then how will it serve as a template? I just don't see what's in it for the EU to include any UK considerations in a EU/Japan deal unless of course we intend to remain part of the Customs Union making Fox and his dept redundant.

We either do trade deals by ourselves for ourselves or we contract them out to the EU and remain economically within the bloc. This idea of cut and pasting someone else's work and changing EU to UK and handing it in as our own work is back to cake and eating it territory.
 
This time last year 'Double D' was predicting that we we would now be negotiating free trade deals around the world particularly with China and the USA and that these would be ready for signature shortly after we left the EU in March 2019.
Ever felt had Brexiters?
PS In May 2016 he was predicting we would have a separate free trade deal with Germany!
YCNMIU Jeff.
 
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This time last year 'Double D' was predicting that we we would now be negotiating free trade deals around the world particularly with China and the USA and that these would be ready for signature shortly after we left the EU in March 2019.
Ever felt had Brexiters?
PS In May 2016 he was predicting we would have a separate free trade deal with Germany!
YCNMIU Jeff.


Happy-New-Years-Sexy-Gifs02.gif
 
Writing in the Telegraph no less!....

For years the EU bent over backwards to please Britain. Now you ask for 'flexibility'?

Guy Verhofstadt chief Brexit negotiator of the European Parliament...

Writing in the Telegraph this week, former Conservative leader William Hague accused the EU of giving David Davis and his team the “runaround” and showing entrenched inflexibility with regards to British membership of the EU, David Cameron’s renegotiation and the current Brexit talks. In Brussels this week, Mr Davis doubled down on these calls for more flexibility. But the facts do not support this mantra.

Since the UK joined the EU, it has enjoyed a bespoke form of membership that is unique. An opt-out from the euro, but banker to the Eurozone. An opt-out from Schengen, but access to the security databases linked to it. A blanket opt-out from Justice and Home Affairs, with the possibility to opt back into the most effective crime-fighting measures. The list goes on.
...................................

Our game of who blinks first might appeal to the juveniles in here, but it's playing to the gallery it gets us nowhere, it's a pathetic attempt to mask our pitifully weak position to the Brexit faithful who left school early, Davis knows this.

These negotiations are a shambles, Davis is making sure the little england herd blame it on the Eurocrats rather than him, while he sounds out a bid to replace May.
 
Writing in the Telegraph no less!....

For years the EU bent over backwards to please Britain. Now you ask for 'flexibility'?

Guy Verhofstadt chief Brexit negotiator of the European Parliament...

Writing in the Telegraph this week, former Conservative leader William Hague accused the EU of giving David Davis and his team the “runaround” and showing entrenched inflexibility with regards to British membership of the EU, David Cameron’s renegotiation and the current Brexit talks. In Brussels this week, Mr Davis doubled down on these calls for more flexibility. But the facts do not support this mantra.

Since the UK joined the EU, it has enjoyed a bespoke form of membership that is unique. An opt-out from the euro, but banker to the Eurozone. An opt-out from Schengen, but access to the security databases linked to it. A blanket opt-out from Justice and Home Affairs, with the possibility to opt back into the most effective crime-fighting measures. The list goes on.
...................................

Our game of who blinks first might appeal to the juveniles in here, but it's playing to the gallery it gets us nowhere, it's a pathetic attempt to mask our pitifully weak position to the Brexit faithful who left school early, Davis knows this.

These negotiations are a shambles, Davis is making sure the little england herd blame it on the Eurocrats rather than him, while he sounds out a bid to replace May.

Little England?

Yawn :)
 
LOL.
A few small companies and one UK manufacturer are 'confident' based on a weak £.
Wow!
Oh by the way, it's non tariff barriers that are the main problem you might like to tell your manufacturer.

You can forget about non tariff barriers, the Brexit faithful in here don't know what they are and don't care that they don't know. Brexit means Brexit is the length and breadth of their analysis.
 


Tory peer in wanting Brexit to increase slavery shocker.



Nailed it Bob.


I heard the interview. This is a "businessman" and a Tory peer who's in favour of Brexit because he doesn't know he can employ people for longer than he thinks he can and blames it on the EU.

Not that the referendum was decided by people with little understanding of the issues... Just a pity they let peers vote but not 16/17 year olds.
 
laurel-and-hardy-laugh-in-o.gif


Wanna bet?

You love to bet, for all of us.

Bit by bit Brexit is slowly being dismantled, yet you refuse to see it.

The idea that the UK would be discussing a transition period would have been unthinkable a year ago, now it is more a question of how long.

The UK will be in the Customs Union permanently. It will stay in the Single Market. Immigration levels will remain as they are. Reparations to the EU... All now being discussed.

Where was all this 12 months ago?

frog_pot2.jpg


On the balance of probability we'll still leave, we're incapable as a nation, saddled with the political class we have, of reversing such a calamitous decision, that'll be for future generations. But whatever emerges from this tawdry process I can guarantee it'll be unrecognisable from the sunny uplands and land of hope and glory promised by the likes of Johnson, Fox, Davis and Farage.
 
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You can forget about non tariff barriers, the Brexit faithful in here don't know what they are and don't care that they don't know. Brexit means Brexit is the length and breadth of their analysis.
Come on mate you're being far too harsh on our good friends the Brexiters.
Haven't you heard of:
"We sell more to them than they do to us".
"They need us more than we need them".
Keep up.
 
Come on mate you're being far too harsh on our good friends the Brexiters.
Haven't you heard of:
"We sell more to them than they do to us".
"They need us more than we need them".
Keep up.

How could I not! All those BMW execs fretting about their mountain of unsold cars, that Prosecco lake undrunk.

Jesus Christ! Those Continental Johnnies are in deep shit.

Found this today, sums up the different mind sets rather well....


In Britain, both the government and much of the public have come to believe that, as confrontational as it may be, Brexit is an issue that both sides have an equal interest in sorting out. It’s as if a mountain were to be climbed by two parallel teams. Whoever comes out on top will be the winner, but the mountain must be conquered by both, otherwise there will be a catastrophic cliff fall.

On the continent, an altogether different metaphor applies. Picture a ship sailing off from a port where it was well anchored, and the port’s many inhabitants wanting to make sure that ship is neither carrying cannons that it may shoot back at them, nor equipment that would make it impossible for the port to thrive.

Those on land also want to know that the departing ship’s captain won’t seek to return as if nothing had changed, and won’t demand a say in how the place develops without abiding by all of the locally agreed rules.

Indeed, the land-people believe, with good reason, that the integrity of those locally agreed rules is what defines their collective identity in the first place. It is what helped them overcome the trauma of self-destruction in a past century, and what allows them to face external and internal challenges today. It is also what their business and trade interests require in an environment of global competition, in which large blocs have a better chance of defending themselves than smaller entities do.

The departing ship is watched with both sadness and concern, but there is no rush to take on its navigation problems. That all of the land-people may not always agree on everything changes little. They’re aligned in letting the port authority discuss an orderly way out for the ship, and they’re keen to keep close contact with it in the future – but within conditions they consider non-negotiable. The point of this metaphor is that there is no common effort. Britain and the EU are not struggling with Brexit together: Britain is seeking its own route, and it is essentially alone in that quandary. On the EU side, there is only one imperative: self-preservation.

If you read the European council guidelines for Brexit negotiations. It’s all there: “no cherry-picking”, “no separate negotiations”. And this: “European integration has brought peace and prosperity to Europe and allowed for an unprecedented level and scope of cooperation in a rapidly changing world. Therefore, the union’s overall objective in these negotiations will be to preserve its interests, those of its citizens, its businesses and its member states.”

Simply put, the EU’s interests lie in preventing the UK from harming or threatening its integration. The EU is not in a race with the UK. Nor is it trying to punish anyone – which is not to say that the defence of EU red lines won’t at times be detrimental to the UK. But again, leaving was Britain’s choice. The EU did not initiate any of this. It believes the onus is on Britain, not on itself, to do what is necessary to avoid a worst-case scenario.

It is not that Michael Barnier, or other EU leaders, have not pointed this out already. The trouble is that so little seems to be trickling down into British perceptions. As a consequence, the mood is souring. The EU is an existential, not a transactional project. Finally grasping that could take Britain a long way.
 
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