Theresa May

SWP's back said:
Absolute horse shit.
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Somewhat off-topic mate, but knowing you're a bit into science, you might be interested to know that very possibly - probably even - it isn't.

There's strong evidence to suggest that the past, present and future are just places in on a space-time map which already exist and that our concept of "present" and the sense that time "flows" is merely an illusion. What is certainly true (and not in debate) is that there is no universal concept of "now" upon which everyone in the universe agrees, and that events in someone else's future could already have happened in your past.
 
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Chippy_boy said:
Somewhat off-topic mate, but knowing you're a bit into science, you might be interested to know that very possibly - probably even - it isn't.

There's strong evidence to suggest that the past, present and future are just places in on a space-time map which already exist and that our concept of "present" and the sense that time "flows" is merely an illusion. What is certainly true (and not in debate) is that there is no universal concept of "now" upon which everyone in the universe agrees, and that events in someone else's future could already have happened in your past.
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It's more the nature vs. nurture idea. Saying that what will be will be is to say it's 100% nature how you end up. In reality, nurturing choices have a huge, proven effect, and are much more likely to be chaotic rather than pre-defined.
 
Fame Monster said:
How do we make our decisions then? God? The Id? The self? The superego? All of which have as much supporting evidence as Father Christmas or dragons? I think I’ll side with the world of science on this mate.
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Let me know when you do and we’ll talk as you’re not remotely on the side of science at the minute.
 
Fame Monster said:
Just because it's not easy to predict interactions doesn't mean they aren't predictable.
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They're predictable in a sense that a road might have 2 car accidents per year. They aren't predictable in the way that you couldn't say that a husband and wife would get killed in a car accident on that road, causing their kids to go to a poor care home, begin to under-perform at school and end up without qualifications and unemployed.
 
Chippy_boy said:
Somewhat off-topic mate, but knowing you're a bit into science, you might be interested to know that very possibly - probably even - it isn't.

There's strong evidence to suggest that the past, present and future are just places in on a space-time map which already exist and that our concept of "present" and the sense that time "flows" is merely an illusion. What is certainly true (and not in debate) is that there is no universal concept of "now" upon which everyone in the universe agrees, and that events in someone else's future could already have happened in your past.
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I’m not a fatalist. I don’t believe we are stuck as unwitting characters in a movie that’s already been written. To believe that is to believe that no decisions we take are important. There’s no need to debate politics or football as what will be will be and that we can’t effect change. To believe that is to believe there’s no good and no evil, no one is at fault for their actions and no one should be credited for their good.
 
SWP's back said:
I’m not a fatalist. I don’t believe we are stuck as unwitting characters in a movie that’s already been written. To believe that is to believe that no decisions we take are important. There’s no need to debate politics or football as what will be will be and that we can’t effect change. To believe that is to believe there’s no good and no evil, no one is at fault for their actions and no one should be credited for their good.
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This is a philosophical argument, but even if the future is pre-ordained (as I happen to believe it is, btw) that is not incompatible with the concept of free will. You're free to type whatever you want next. But in the great tapestry of history, when we look back on this event in 10 days time, what you type next was always going to be what you type next. Henry ViiI only ever had 6 wives and looking back that's it - there's only 1 copy of our history. But did he feel at the time he had no free will? No.
 
CityStu said:
They're predictable in a sense that a road might have 2 car accidents per year. They aren't predictable in the way that you couldn't say that a husband and wife would get killed in a car accident on that road, causing their kids to go to a poor care home, begin to under-perform at school and end up without qualifications and unemployed.
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I strongly disagree. Everything is explicable by the laws of the Universe. If you wanna believe that there’s some kind of god in the machine then that’s pride fucking with you (to quote Pulp Fiction). Also, my point isn’t to say fuck pride we should all go on the dole, science is descriptive not prescriptive.
 
Fame Monster said:
I strongly disagree. Everything is explicable by the laws of the Universe.
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You have heard of chaos theory, right? And quantum mechanics? And Heisenberg etc? And that if you could *perfectly* and I mean perfectly mathematically model a die, it's size, shape, position and velocity (which is impossible since we can never know precisely both position and momentum). And perfectly model the baise of the gaming table and every hair and exactly how the die will land, then STILL we could not mathematically be able to determine whether it will come up with a 1 or a 6, because the universe doesn't work in such a predictable way.

Is the behaviour explicable, as in we understand what's going on? Sure it is. Is it *predictable*? No, it isn't.

This is not to say that future events may not be inevitable if the whole of space-time exists already. But saying that does not mean the future is predictable from any particular point in time. (more correctly, in space-time).
 
Fame Monster said:
I strongly disagree. Everything is explicable by the laws of the Universe. If you wanna believe that there’s some kind of god in the machine then that’s pride fucking with you (to quote Pulp Fiction). Also, my point isn’t to say fuck pride we should all go on the dole, science is descriptive not prescriptive.
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Surely it's closer to belief in a deity if you think that everything is preordained?
 
Chippy_boy said:
This is a philosophical argument, but even if the future is pre-ordained (as I happen to believe it is, btw) that is not incompatible with the concept of free will. You're free to type whatever you want next. But in the great tapestry of history, when we look back on this event in 10 days time, what you type next was always going to be what you type next. Henry ViiI only ever had 6 wives and looking back that's it - there's only 1 copy of our history. But did he feel at the time he had no free will? No.
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What you’re saying there is different.

One I type my words they are typed. When I make a video recording of a live match then it will only show what was recorded and not change each time. That’s only logical.

What I don’t agree with is the way the match was always going to go and that so and so player was always going to slice his clearance in the 32nd minute as it was preordained.

What you are right about is the fact it’s a philosophical argument as opposed to a scientific one.
 
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Fame Monster said:
I strongly disagree. Everything is explicable by the laws of the Universe. If you wanna believe that there’s some kind of god in the machine then that’s pride fucking with you (to quote Pulp Fiction). Also, my point isn’t to say fuck pride we should all go on the dole, science is descriptive not prescriptive.
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It’s not science. It’s one very much unproven theory and it’s not mainstream.
 
SWP's back said:
Absolute horse shit.
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It's absolutely true. There's no other conclusion that somebody can draw.

The problem though is that it requires a perfect understanding of every vibration of a string, every atom or molecule or planet and how they all interact with each other which is fundamentally impossible. Randomness does not exist.
 
SWP's back said:
Let me know when you do and we’ll talk as you’re not remotely on the side of science at the minute.
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This is also true.

It's a drawn conclusion, it's not in any way scientifically acceptable or "known", let alone understood
 
Damocles said:
It's absolutely true. There's no other conclusion that somebody can draw.

The problem though is that it requires a perfect understanding of every vibration of a string, every atom or molecule or planet and how they all interact with each other which is fundamentally impossible. Randomness does not exist.
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Randomness very much does exist, and it's an intrinsic part of the way the universe works mate. Quantum mechanics proves that beyond any doubt.

What is being debated is somewhat different, in that does the future already exist and therefore are the choices you make, which feel very very real to you at the time, the choices you are always going to make. The answer to that is very possibly yes, although SWP is no alone in having difficulty with that concept.
 
Chippy_boy said:
Randomness very much does exist, and it's an intrinsic part of the way the universe works mate. Quantum mechanics proves that beyond any doubt.

What is being debated is somewhat different, in that does the future already exist and therefore are the choices you make, which feel very very real to you at the time, the choices you are always going to make. The answer to that is very possibly yes, although SWP is no alone in having difficulty with that concept.
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So by that token it was preordained that I would come back to this thread about Theresa May to have to wade through all this stuff that a 12 year old might understand but I sure as he'll don't. Wish I'd fucking known
 
Is her dancing that bad (or good) it has us debating how the entire universe functions?

Maybe she is leader material after all.
 
What the fuck happened to the Theresa May thread???
 
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