Rabbi Matondo

[doobyedoobye]

Why, what would your solution be?

It was more of a question to those who believe Pep should be doing something different.

 

[domalino]

More than Foden?

18* year olds with the most Premier League minutes this season -

1403 - Ryan Sessegnon (16) Fulham
424 - Morgan Gibbs-White (3) Wolves
350 - Dwight McNeil (4) Burnley
116 - Oliver Skipp (1) Spurs
115 - Michael Obafemi (1) Southampton
91 - Phil Foden (0) Manchester City
90 - Kayne Ramsey (1) Southampton
51 - Callum Hudson-Odoi (0) Chelsea
9 - Angel Gomes (0) Manchester United
7 - Bukayo Sakho (0) Arsenal
2 - Ben Wilmot (0) Watford

 

[aguero93:20]

18* year olds with the most Premier League minutes this season -

1403 - Ryan Sessegnon (16) Fulham
424 - Morgan Gibbs-White (3) Wolves
350 - Dwight McNeil (4) Burnley
116 - Oliver Skipp (1) Spurs
115 - Michael Obafemi (1) Southampton
91 - Phil Foden (0) Manchester City
90 - Kayne Ramsey (1) Southampton
51 - Callum Hudson-Odoi (0) Chelsea
9 - Angel Gomes (0) Manchester United
7 - Bukayo Sakho (0) Arsenal
2 - Ben Wilmot (0) Watford

2 promoted clubs and a relegation candidate, everyone else is on par or lower. What happens when you bring the cups in?

 

[blue b4 the moon]

18* year olds with the most Premier League minutes this season -

1403 - Ryan Sessegnon (16) Fulham
424 - Morgan Gibbs-White (3) Wolves
350 - Dwight McNeil (4) Burnley
116 - Oliver Skipp (1) Spurs
115 - Michael Obafemi (1) Southampton
91 - Phil Foden (0) Manchester City
90 - Kayne Ramsey (1) Southampton
51 - Callum Hudson-Odoi (0) Chelsea
9 - Angel Gomes (0) Manchester United
7 - Bukayo Sakho (0) Arsenal
2 - Ben Wilmot (0) Watford

75 mins of Skipp's total came in the game he started when they had a last minute winner v Burnley.

If you just look at 'big clubs' without that anomily Phil has twice the game time although not a great amount of time on the pitch than their players.

Wonder what the figures look like including cup games? I'd guess we'd see our lad much higher in the table.

 

[domalino]

2 promoted clubs and a relegation candidate, everyone else is on par or lower. What happens when you bring the cups in?

75 mins of Skipp's total came in the game he started when they had a last minute winner v Burnley.

If you just look at 'big clubs' without that anomily Phil has twice the game time although not a great amount of time on the pitch than their players.

Wonder what the figures look like including cup games? I'd guess we'd see our lad much higher in the table.

I'm still not sure that their position in the table is entirely relevant.

It might be easier to get in those sides, but they also don't get to bring people on at 3-0 when the game is over, which is where 92% (84 out of 91) of Foden's minutes have come. So what's more beneficial? 5 minutes when the game is over every 3 weeks, or a couple of solid appearances when the game isn't over?

Also I think you're scraping the barrel if you think giving a big game to a kid is an "anomaly" in a conversation about giving kids game time.

 

[aguero93:20]

I'm still not sure that their position in the table is entirely relevant.

It might be easier to get in those sides, but they also don't get to bring people on at 3-0 when the game is over, which is where 92% (84 out of 91) of Foden's minutes have come. So what's more beneficial? 5 minutes when the game is over every 3 weeks, or a couple of solid appearances when the game isn't over?

It's easier to get in their league teams mate, full stop. Bring in the cups and Foden will be on a par or ahead of all of them. While getting a superior level of coaching and learning from better players. Also, only Skipp is even on a par from a top team and nearly all his league minutes came in one game when Spurs had nobody else to play. So this narrative that City is a worse club for Foden to be at is a load of shite.

 

[domalino]

2017 u17 Wold Cup winners with the most minutes in senior competitions this season -

1350 - Jadon Sancho (Borussia Dortmund)
650 - Phil Foden (Manchester City)
586 - Morgan Gibbs-White (Wolves)
539 - Danny Loader (Reading)
495 - Callum Hudson-Odoi (Chelsea)
402 - Emile Smith-Rowe (Arsenal)
334 - George McEachran (Chelsea)
283 - Marc Guehi (Chelsea)
258 - Tashan Oakley-Booth (Tottenham)
195 - Steven Sessegnon (Fulham)
90 - Jonathan Panzo (Monaco)
90 - Billy Crellin (Fleetwood Town)
90 - Josef Bursik (Telford United)
11 - Timothy Eyoma (Tottenham)
9 - Angel Gomes (Manchester United)

 

[domalino]

It's easier to get in their league teams mate, full stop. Bring in the cups and Foden will be on a par or ahead of all of them. While getting a superior level of coaching and learning from better players. Also, only Skipp is even on a par from a top team and nearly all his league minutes came in one game when Spurs had nobody else to play. So this narrative that City is a worse club for Foden to be at is a load of shite.

It might be easier but they're playing games that matter. No one learns by jogging about for 10 minutes while your team walks to a 3+ goal victory and the opposition aren't bothered any more.

And that's part of the conversation about these kids' best interests - is it better for them to drop down a bit and play regular football?

There's also another thing - they aren't as good. Foden isn't a good 18 year old, he's a kid who won the golden ball at the world cup, the best of the best. On a level playing field he'd be expected to play more than the others anyway.


I'm not stating an argument either way, I'm just posting the figures.

 

[aguero93:20]

2017 u17 Wold Cup winners with the most minutes in senior competitions this season -

1350 - Jadon Sancho (Borussia Dortmund)
650 - Phil Foden (Manchester City)
586 - Morgan Gibbs-White (Wolves)
495 - Callum Hudson-Odoi (Chelsea)
402 - Emile Smith-Rowe (Arsenal)
334 - George McEachran (Chelsea)
283 - Marc Guehi (Chelsea)
258 - Tashan Oakley-Booth (Tottenham)
195 - Steven Sessegnon (Fulham)
90 - Jonathan Panzo (Monaco)
90 - Billy Crellin (Fleetwood Town)
90 - Josef Bursik (Telford United)
11 - Timothy Eyoma (Tottenham)
9 - Angel Gomes (Manchester United)

There we go.
Despite City having De Bruyne, Silva, Bernardo and Gundogan to pick from for 2 places, all highly experienced and decorated internationals, Foden is second on that list.

 

[aguero93:20]

It might be easier but they're playing games that matter. No one learns by jogging about for 10 minutes while your team walks to a 3+ goal victory and the opposition aren't bothered any more.

And that's part of the conversation about these kids' best interests - is it better for them to drop down a bit and play regular football?

The cup games matter and Foden is under serious pressure to perform in them, as he's got far stiffer competition for a first team place and unlike a lot of those teams City are expected to win every game with something to spare and nothing else is good enough.

 

[domalino]

The cup games matter and Foden is under serious pressure to perform in them, as he's got far stiffer competition for a first team place and unlike a lot of those teams City are expected to win every game with something to spare and nothing else is good enough.

Again "City are expected to win every game with something to spare and nothing else is good enough." is a bullshit argument when you're talking about some of the clubs being in relegation battles. You think they aren't fighting as hard as possible for every single point?

Some of the cup games matter (not sure 30 mins against Burton at 5-0 matters) but there's also the fact that we can put out 10 world class players and a kid and know that we can still beat every League 1 & Championship side, which is a massive luxury other clubs don't have.

In the end, developing at a top club like City and developing at a mid-table club is completely different and the arguments have to be more nuanced than "Player 1 has X minutes while Player 2 has Y minutes".

One thing seems to be true though in the end, that an increasing number of our best kids don't think this is the place to become a senior player.

 

[aguero93:20]

Again "City are expected to win every game with something to spare and nothing else is good enough." is a bullshit argument when you're talking about some of the clubs being in relegation battles. You think they aren't fighting as hard as possible for every single point?

Some of the cup games matter (not sure 30 mins against Burton at 5-0 matters) but there's also the fact that we can put out 10 world class players and a kid and know that we can still beat every League 1 & Championship side, which is a massive luxury other clubs don't have.

In the end, developing at a top club like City and developing at a mid-table club is completely different and the arguments have to be more nuanced than "Player 1 has X minutes while Player 2 has Y minutes".

Fighting as hard as possible for points doesn't mean getting held to the same standard if they fail to deliver them.

 

[domalino]

Fighting as hard as possible for points doesn't mean getting held to the same standard if they fail to deliver them.

Sorry but if you're seriously going to try and argue that relegation isn't a bigger disaster for clubs involved than not winning a title then you're being willfully ignorant. Relegation means people losing jobs, players salaries being halved, potentially long lasting financial problems and £100m a year in lost revenue. If we lose the league title it might be a disappointing season, depending on how we do in the other 3 competition, a few players fringe players might get replaced if we go on a spending spree. It's not a disaster.

The stakes at play for a manager in a relegation fight are just as high as someone chasing a title.

 

[aguero93:20]

Sorry but if you're seriously going to try and argue that relegation isn't a bigger disaster for clubs involved than not winning a title then you're being willfully ignorant. Relegation means people losing jobs, players salaries being halved, potentially long lasting financial problems and £100m a year in lost revenue. If we lose the league title it might be a disappointing season, depending on how we do in the other 3 competition, a few players fringe players might get replaced if we go on a spending spree. It's not a disaster.

The stakes at play for a manager in a relegation fight are just as high as someone chasing a title.

Yes mate, relegation is a big thing. You're still not held to the same standards at Burnley or Southampton as you are at City.

 

[domalino]

Yes mate, relegation is a big thing. You're still not held to the same standards at Burnley or Southampton as you are at City.

Which is completely irrelevant. You've also not got 10 world class teammates next to you, or the best coach in the world.

 

[aguero93:20]

Which is completely irrelevant. You've also not got 10 world class teammates next to you, or the best coach in the world.

It's not completely irrelevant, have a poor game at City you'll stick out like a sore thumb, have the same game for Burnley you're in for a shout of the MOTM award.

 

[blue by birth]

Which is completely irrelevant. You've also not got 10 world class teammates next to you, or the best coach in the world.

Are you saying you don't think Dyche is the best coach in the world ....

 

[domalino]

It's not completely irrelevant, have a poor game at City you'll stick out like a sore thumb, have the same game for Burnley you're in for a shout of the MOTM award.

Have a poor game for City and we win 2-0. have a poor game for Burnley and you lose 2-0.

 

[aguero93:20]

Have a poor game for City and we win 2-0. have a poor game for Burnley and you lose 2-0.

Or we draw or lose and you're singled out.

 

[domalino]

Or we draw or lose and you're singled out.

When has that ever happened? Provide a single example and it might be a halfway decent point.