Bloody Sunday: Soldier F faces murder charges

Skip Donoghue said:
It’s a disgrace The lads were carrying out orders
The prime minister and Home Secretary of the time and officers (probably all dead) who gave the orders should be in the dock, fucking wankers
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Just following orders hasn't been an acceptable excuse since the second world war but I agree the officers should have been charged too, if possible.
 
Tim of the Oak said:
I thought that might be the case for some of the soldiers but most or some might have been telling the truth. It would be very difficult to find defence witnesses so long since the events but all I heard on the BBC this morning was that time has made prosecutions more difficult.

I’ve got huge sympathy for the families and what happened was wrong. However, the gist of this thread was about inconsistency and there seems to be a lot of that from our Government and our opposition too.

I’ve got friends whose family members have been killed by the IRA but I despise the terrorists across the communities, equally. That included Irish Catholics.
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In hindsight it would probably have been better to close the book completely at the time the GFA was concluded.
 
without a dream said:
Just following orders hasn't been an acceptable excuse since the second world war but I agree the officers should have been charged too, if possible.
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I'n almost any other conflict there would have been a trial within a much shorter time frame and the soldiers who pulled the trigger would have been able to explain what orders where received and when. This has been left to fester for far too long.
 
aguero93:20 said:
You could argue that it was inevitable when a commander sent in shock troops with permission to use live ammunition.
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This is my point, along with a few other incidents on the day that never get mentioned.
Wrong troops in place with no training.
 
....what were the orders they were following? It started as a peaceful civil rights march...to say they were just following orders is to suggest they were told to fire on a peaceful civilian march.

You need to really look at the context of the situation....this isnt about soldiers being charged whilst terrorists get away with it. This is about innocent civilians being shot at and killed by the Army. It wasnt a battle or a war. It was a civil rights march.

And no, im not a terrorist sympathiser, my Dad was in the UDR ffs...i know ex-servicemen on this very forum who served over here and they are my friends....but what happened in Derry was murder.
 
aguero93:20 said:
Agreed, 14 (?)different soldiers firing over 100 live rounds into a crowd of unarmed civilians doesn't happen without orders from above. I think we'd all rather see the commanders in the dock.
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Correct the poor young soldier gets the blame - he was probably just following orders
 
aguero93:20 said:
Agreed, 14 (?)different soldiers firing over 100 live rounds into a crowd of unarmed civilians doesn't happen without orders from above. I think we'd all rather see the commanders in the dock.
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Why the commanders ? If anyone is to blame it is the politicians. Lets face it, an army is trained to shoot and to kill. They were not and are not policemen and should never have been asked to go onto the streets. My belief is they were sent by politicians to get the exact reaction they got and N.I. was used thereafter as a training ground.
The ones with blood on their hands are the ones who sent them.
 
“Just following orders”
Where have I heard that before?
I’ve read about soldiers in WW2 who deliberately didn’t ‘shoot to kill’ and I’m sure they were following orders as well when the whole world was at war. If I was a soldier who was “ordered” to open fire at unarmed civilians I think I could fire my weapon and purposely miss.
Our armed forces should be distinguishable from the terrorists in their behaviour and attitude towards human life.
Folk have to recognise some absolute sociopaths find their way into the armed forces and some can be as indoctrinated as the supposed enemy.
 
Prestwich_Blue said:
In hindsight it would probably have been better to close the book completely at the time the GFA was concluded.
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I agree mate. My frustration is that the people don’t seem to have moved on in terms of learning and living side by side. That’s probably too general and I’ve been to the posher parts (Bangor way) a few times and everyone I came across seemed pretty happy.

Part of my frustration was that in the run up to today’s announcement the people from Derry who were interviewed seem to be of the view that today’s news would draw a line under Bloody Sunday (obviously people would always remember their relatives etc). Within minutes of the press conference commencing it was clear from the panel that further litigation was being pursued. That’s their choice but it doesn’t help the wider situation.

There’s a few posters worried about an anti Irish thread but I don’t see it that way. It’s not as if we started crying when we had to listen endless racist crap from Celtic fans at the Etihad a couple of years ago. Admittedly, the home Celtic fans were brilliant in Glasgow and some of the most welcoming fans I’ve come across. I was happy to share a few pints with the Celts
 
AlexWilliamsGloves said:
....what were the orders they were following? It started as a peaceful civil rights march...to say they were just following orders is to suggest they were told to fire on a peaceful civilian march.

You need to really look at the context of the situation....this isnt about soldiers being charged whilst terrorists get away with it. This is about innocent civilians being shot at and killed by the Army. It wasnt a battle or a war. It was a civil rights march.

And no, im not a terrorist sympathiser, my Dad was in the UDR ffs...i know ex-servicemen on this very forum who served over here and they are my friends....but what happened in Derry was murder.
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A peaceful civil rights march where both sides had guns and used them doesn't seem very peaceful to me.
 
kinkyblue said:
Who knows for sure who’s is correct
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Perhaps the 12 year Saville Inquiry?


Bloody Sunday (Irish: Domhnach na Fola)[1][2]—sometimes called the Bogside Massacre[3]—happened on 30 January 1972, in the Bogside area of Derry, Northern Ireland. In this event, 26 unarmed civil-rights protesters and people who were watching were shot by soldiers of the British Army. Thirteen males, seven of whom were teenagers, died immediately or soon after. A fourteenth man died from his injuries four-and-a-half months later. Two protesters were also run down by army vehicles.[4] Five of the wounded were shot in the back.[5] The incident happened during a Northern Ireland Civil Rights Association march. The soldiers involved were members of the First Battalion of the Parachute Regiment (1 Para).[6]

Two investigations have been held by the British government. The Widgery Tribunal, held soon after the event, said that the soldiers and British authorities were almost reckless. Critics said the report made it seem like the British did nothing wrong. [7][8][9] The Saville Inquiry was held in 1998 to investigate the events a second time. The inquiry took 12 years. The report was made public on 15 June 2010. The report said that some soldiers were wrong to have shot the protesters.[10] The report found that all of the people shot were unarmed, and that the killings were "unjustified". When the Saville report was published, the British prime minister, David Cameron, said sorry to the victims.[11]

The Provisional Irish Republican Army's (IRA) war against the partition of Ireland had begun in the two years before the incident. The incident helped the IRA to recruit new members.[12]Bloody Sunday remains among the most important events in the Troubles of Northern Ireland. The reason it is seen as so important is because those who died were shot by the British Army rather than paramilitaries.[3]


Try and imagine this happening in Manchester....a huge part of your population discriminated against and holding a demonstration against it....then, (in their opinion) a foreign army...opens fire on them...killing many, as described above.



Its easy, from England, with no association to what happened to say "ah they mush have been terrorists, or the must have been shooting at the Army."...but this shit happened, the Army indiscriminately and deliberately shot at unarmed civilians with the intention of killing them.
Again, imagine YOUR army and/or police force doing that in Manchester.
 
AlexWilliamsGloves said:
Perhaps the 12 year Saville Inquiry?


Bloody Sunday (Irish: Domhnach na Fola)[1][2]—sometimes called the Bogside Massacre[3]—happened on 30 January 1972, in the Bogside area of Derry, Northern Ireland. In this event, 26 unarmed civil-rights protesters and people who were watching were shot by soldiers of the British Army. Thirteen males, seven of whom were teenagers, died immediately or soon after. A fourteenth man died from his injuries four-and-a-half months later. Two protesters were also run down by army vehicles.[4] Five of the wounded were shot in the back.[5] The incident happened during a Northern Ireland Civil Rights Association march. The soldiers involved were members of the First Battalion of the Parachute Regiment (1 Para).[6]

Two investigations have been held by the British government. The Widgery Tribunal, held soon after the event, said that the soldiers and British authorities were almost reckless. Critics said the report made it seem like the British did nothing wrong. [7][8][9] The Saville Inquiry was held in 1998 to investigate the events a second time. The inquiry took 12 years. The report was made public on 15 June 2010. The report said that some soldiers were wrong to have shot the protesters.[10] The report found that all of the people shot were unarmed, and that the killings were "unjustified". When the Saville report was published, the British prime minister, David Cameron, said sorry to the victims.[11]

The Provisional Irish Republican Army's (IRA) war against the partition of Ireland had begun in the two years before the incident. The incident helped the IRA to recruit new members.[12]Bloody Sunday remains among the most important events in the Troubles of Northern Ireland. The reason it is seen as so important is because those who died were shot by the British Army rather than paramilitaries.[3]


Try and imagine this happening in Manchester....a huge part of your population discriminated against and holding a demonstration against it....then, (in their opinion) a foreign army...opens fire on them...killing many, as described above.



Its easy, from England, with no association to what happened to say "ah they mush have been terrorists, or the must have been shooting at the Army."...but this shit happened, the Army indiscriminately and deliberately shot at unarmed civilians with the intention of killing them.
Again, imagine YOUR army and/or police force doing that in Manchester.
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Growing up through the 70's in the safety of Dublin, I always thought, that this would never be allowed to happen on mainland Britain. It would not be tolerated.
Discrimination and atrocities had been ongoing in The North since partition and tolerated by the UK as it was out of sight. You're right, if it happened in Manchester or Birmingham, you wouldn't have such a long protracted military presence. Political will would be to normalise the place and get normal policing back as soon as possible.
When this flared up at the end of the 60's and The Civil Rights movement took people out on the streets, The unionist Government requested the army be brought in.
At first Catholic communities welcomed them as they were being attacked on marches, but as it became evident that there was no political will to tackle the injustices they were facing, this relationship turned sour by 1970 when curfews were imposed on certain areas.
The rise of the paramilitaries grew out of this.
Successive British Government since 1922 ignored the situation up north. I firmly believe that it would never happen in England, Scotland or Wales.

Bloody Sunday was an atrocity that shocked the world. There were many atrocities since, that made me ashamed to be Irish at times. When visiting the UK you would have to be at pains to tell people that this wasn't being done in your name. Seems hard to remember a time when travelling over on the boat I would regularly be taken out of the line at customs and questioned and searched.
Well the same goes the other way around. What happened on Bloody Sunday is shameful to any right minded person.

It's not a blame game either. It's just knowing what's right and what's wrong.

For me the UK Government acknowledging and apologising was enough in my mind, but it wasn't my family gunned down so who am I to judge.
I don't know the evidence presented, but one squaddie being singled out and nobody above him taking responsibility for the operation seems convenient for the army.
Convenient for all except the squaddie.
 
If he acted beyond the remit of his orders and duty and has committed a crime then the law should apply, regardless of whether he is in the army or not.
 
laughing gravy said:
what about the IRA using civilians as shields?
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You cannot justify someone's actions by what the other side did, that doesn't just white wash away what happened. Just because he was a soldier doesn't make him exempt, if was acting on what he was ordered to do I really don't see the problem do you? Because if he is, then he will be cleared end of matter end of.
 
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