The Labour Party

[Rascal]

That's exactly my question to you, it's a failed ideology and you are promoting its adherents in the Labour Party and their dishonest message.
When Jezzer's controller and likely successor John McDonnell tells us there is a lot to learn from Marx he really should add that the main thing is that his predictions and his theories are both wrong. Let's see what he says this morning.

There is a lot to learn from Marx, McDonell is right,but it doesn't make Labour a Marxist party, that is Macarthyite scaremongering. People from across the political divide left and right take inspiration from his work, if you think they don't then there is no helping you. Do you even realise that free education for children is part of the Communist Manifesto? That is happily the position of all the major parties in the UK, so there you go, Marxism at work.

 

[George Hannah]

There is a lot to learn from Marx, McDonell is right,but it doesn't make Labour a Marxist party, that is Macarthyite scaremongering. People from across the political divide left and right take inspiration from his work, if you think they don't then there is no helping you. Do you even realise that free education for children is part of the Communist Manifesto? That is happily the position of all the major parties in the UK, so there you go, Marxism at work.

OK, fair enough. You believe the Labour Party isn't controlled by self-identified Marxists and even if it is that doesn't make it a Marxist party.
In any case Marx once mentioned he liked idea of free education for children so that is an example of why his theories about the violent overthrow of the state by the working class are correct....right?

 

[kevin horlocks wand]

There is a lot to learn from Marx, McDonell is right,but it doesn't make Labour a Marxist party, that is Macarthyite scaremongering. People from across the political divide left and right take inspiration from his work, if you think they don't then there is no helping you. Do you even realise that free education for children is part of the Communist Manifesto? That is happily the position of all the major parties in the UK, so there you go, Marxism at work.

Yeah and United play football in Manchester and I like football and live in Manchester and therefore I am a United fan

 

[Ban-jani]

Yeah and United play football in Manchester and I like football and live in Manchester and therefore I am a United fan

They don’t though.

Well they do actually sorry, one game a season.

 

[gordondaviesmoustache]

They don’t though.

Well they do actually sorry, one game a season.

That was debatable last season.

 

[Ban-jani]

That was debatable last season.

I stand corrected.

 

[urban genie]

Yeah and United play football in Manchester and I like football and live in Manchester and therefore I am a United fan

They play in trafford, cheshire tbf

 

[mat]

Well fuck me.

Press start sniffing around some iffy money Boris has recieved and Hammond leading 30 tory MP's to oppose a no deal Brexit. All of a sudden another Labour antisemitism piece makes the news produced by a man who's reputation proceeds him.

 

[Rascal]

OK, fair enough. You believe the Labour Party isn't controlled by self-identified Marxists and even if it is that doesn't make it a Marxist party.
In any case Marx once mentioned he liked idea of free education for children so that is an example of why his theories about the violent overthrow of the state by the working class are correct....right?

You are missing the subtle difference between some and all.

You can quite comfortably take good points from any theory and adapt them, whether they are Marxist, Hayekian or Keynesian. You don't have to take all the theory as word. I appreciate Marx made some great points, but he was also not a fan of Socialism, I am a Socialist. You can take part of the Nicomachean Ethics without being a lover of Aristotle and so on, because the world is a different place to when these great tracts were written. If you seriously believe that the Labour Party advocate the violent overthrowing of the state by the proletariat then I think you really have to look into why Labour is a Democratic Socialist party, the emphasis on Democratic. I am of the opinion others are not as is the lefts want that it was Lenin who was the greatest advocate of violent overthrowing of the state, he was a revolutionary. I have not seen or heard any Labour MP describe themselves as a Leninist. If you read Orwell at length who in my opinion is one of the greatest writers ever, he is vehemently against authoritarian orthodoxy, he probably has had as much influence on the left as anyone.

Your use of the word Marxist is just the same as others using the word Nazi on another thread. Its an attempt to smear, its shallow and unthinking and basically shows a lack of imagination. I seriously do not believe that the right are Nazis, just as I don't believe the left are Marxists, its lazy to think that. What happens on both sides is the evolution of the old thinking into new views based on the old. Like I said, would you call everybody who advocates calling for free education for children a Marxist? No you would not in the same way I would not call all those advocating for cuts in immigration Nazi's.

Seriously this is how low and debased politics in this country has become, there are no grown ups anymore, just people throwing out lazy smears and stupid innuendo which adds absolutely nothing to any serious debate. If you start from the view people are extremists then those extremes widen and a vacuum is created and consensus becomes impossible. That is where we are at now with the Brexit impasse. The other danger is the more that unorthodox thinking is promoted, the more orthodox it becomes and you get the creep of acceptance and the standardisation of the thinking as the norms.

 

[Rascal]

Yeah and United play football in Manchester and I like football and live in Manchester and therefore I am a United fan

United don't play in Manchester, so your example works a treat.

 

[Rascal]

Well fuck me.

Press start sniffing around some iffy money Boris has recieved and Hammond leading 30 tory MP's to oppose a no deal Brexit. All of a sudden another Labour antisemitism piece makes the news produced by a man who's reputation proceeds him.

I am not surprised.

Chomsky gave a perfect explanation of it all.

 

[Ancient Citizen]

You are missing the subtle difference between some and all.

You can quite comfortably take good points from any theory and adapt them, whether they are Marxist, Hayekian or Keynesian. You don't have to take all the theory as word. I appreciate Marx made some great points, but he was also not a fan of Socialism, I am a Socialist. You can take part of the Nicomachean Ethics without being a lover of Aristotle and so on, because the world is a different place to when these great tracts were written. If you seriously believe that the Labour Party advocate the violent overthrowing of the state by the proletariat then I think you really have to look into why Labour is a Democratic Socialist party, the emphasis on Democratic. I am of the opinion others are not as is the lefts want that it was Lenin who was the greatest advocate of violent overthrowing of the state, he was a revolutionary. I have not seen or heard any Labour MP describe themselves as a Leninist. If you read Orwell at length who in my opinion is one of the greatest writers ever, he is vehemently against authoritarian orthodoxy, he probably has had as much influence on the left as anyone.

Your use of the word Marxist is just the same as others using the word Nazi on another thread. Its an attempt to smear, its shallow and unthinking and basically shows a lack of imagination. I seriously do not believe that the right are Nazis, just as I don't believe the left are Marxists, its lazy to think that. What happens on both sides is the evolution of the old thinking into new views based on the old. Like I said, would you call everybody who advocates calling for free education for children a Marxist? No you would not in the same way I would not call all those advocating for cuts in immigration Nazi's.

Seriously this is how low and debased politics in this country has become, there are no grown ups anymore, just people throwing out lazy smears and stupid innuendo which adds absolutely nothing to any serious debate. If you start from the view people are extremists then those extremes widen and a vacuum is created and consensus becomes impossible. That is where we are at now with the Brexit impasse. The other danger is the more that unorthodox thinking is promoted, the more orthodox it becomes and you get the creep of acceptance and the standardisation of the thinking as the norms.

The would be Chancellor of the Labour party seems to be smearing himself...



Not Too bothered how he gets to power either,...

 

[Rascal]

Thank you @Ancient Citizen for proving my point.

 

[The perfect fumble]

Ho hum...

I think I'll have another cup of tea.

 

[George Hannah]

You are missing the subtle difference between some and all.

You can quite comfortably take good points from any theory and adapt them, whether they are Marxist, Hayekian or Keynesian. You don't have to take all the theory as word. I appreciate Marx made some great points, but he was also not a fan of Socialism, I am a Socialist. You can take part of the Nicomachean Ethics without being a lover of Aristotle and so on, because the world is a different place to when these great tracts were written. If you seriously believe that the Labour Party advocate the violent overthrowing of the state by the proletariat then I think you really have to look into why Labour is a Democratic Socialist party, the emphasis on Democratic. I am of the opinion others are not as is the lefts want that it was Lenin who was the greatest advocate of violent overthrowing of the state, he was a revolutionary. I have not seen or heard any Labour MP describe themselves as a Leninist. If you read Orwell at length who in my opinion is one of the greatest writers ever, he is vehemently against authoritarian orthodoxy, he probably has had as much influence on the left as anyone.

Your use of the word Marxist is just the same as others using the word Nazi on another thread. Its an attempt to smear, its shallow and unthinking and basically shows a lack of imagination. I seriously do not believe that the right are Nazis, just as I don't believe the left are Marxists, its lazy to think that. What happens on both sides is the evolution of the old thinking into new views based on the old. Like I said, would you call everybody who advocates calling for free education for children a Marxist? No you would not in the same way I would not call all those advocating for cuts in immigration Nazi's.

Seriously this is how low and debased politics in this country has become, there are no grown ups anymore, just people throwing out lazy smears and stupid innuendo which adds absolutely nothing to any serious debate. If you start from the view people are extremists then those extremes widen and a vacuum is created and consensus becomes impossible. That is where we are at now with the Brexit impasse. The other danger is the more that unorthodox thinking is promoted, the more orthodox it becomes and you get the creep of acceptance and the standardisation of the thinking as the norms.

I am acquainted with all the authors you mention and don't doubt your sincerity or truthfulness. Sadly you are seriously mistaken if you believe the current leadership of the Labour Party is not openly Marxist and Communist or seeking to use the party membership to try to destroy the capitalist state - which happens to be our country. There is nothing remotely democratic about any of them.

 

[The perfect fumble]

seeking to use the party membership to try to destroy the capitalist state.

Are we talking dictatorship of the bourgeoisie? Crony capitalism or corporatocracy?

which happens to be our country.

Would it no longer be our country if it wasn't a capitalist state?

There is nothing remotely democratic about any of them.

Beyond being elected members of Parliament.

 

[Rascal]

I am acquainted with all the authors you mention and don't doubt your sincerity or truthfulness. Sadly you are seriously mistaken if you believe the current leadership of the Labour Party is not openly Marxist and Communist or seeking to use the party membership to try to destroy the capitalist state - which happens to be our country. There is nothing remotely democratic about any of them.

Marxist and Communist, are you sure? Although if they were they would definitely have my support.

Do you even realise Communism by design is democratic. Please don't confuse it with the USSR because that was an authoritarian state and that argument is very illiterate. Can you explain why capitalism is democratic when it excludes so many people from society apart from giving them a token vote. Look at the Tory party election at the moment, is that democracy?

 

[George Hannah]

Marxist and Communist, are you sure? Although if they were they would definitely have my support.
Do you even realise Communism by design is democratic. Please don't confuse it with the USSR because that was an authoritarian state and that argument is very illiterate. Can you explain why capitalism is democratic when it excludes so many people from society apart from giving them a token vote. Look at the Tory party election at the moment, is that democracy?

Quite sure, check with Seamus or Andrew if you are in any doubt.The Marxist one-party state to which our current Labour Party leadership aspires will be democratic in a very special sense. Getting there of course needs a conventional democratic veneer if possible, then large-scale civil unrest, mass strikes and picketing, long term blockades of government offices, violent demonstrations, major infrastructure disruption etc etc - the same way as all totalitarian regimes are established.

 

[Rascal]

Quite sure, check with Seamus or Andrew if you are in any doubt.The Marxist one-party state to which our current Labour Party leadership aspires will be democratic in a very special sense. Getting there of course needs a conventional democratic veneer if possible, then large-scale civil unrest, mass strikes and picketing, long term blockades of government offices, violent demonstrations, major infrastructure disruption etc etc - the same way as all totalitarian regimes are established.

We already have large scale civil unrest, mass strikes and picketing, violent demonstrations and major infrastructure disruption under this government. Is that a Marxist plot? Or just incompetence from the worst government in living memory. They are also trying to gerrymander constituencies to aspire towards a one party Tory state, they aspire to be democratic but release propaganda around voting fraud in order to take away voting rights, they have removed access to justice for many less well off people, none of which is democratic. This is the way totalitarian regimes are established, we have one now where the future PM seems willing to over ride Parliament in order to get his required outcome and you think that's democratic.

That is the danger of comparison, until you think it through you do not realise the rabbit hole you are going down. It now appears you are the supporter of the one party state aslong as its a right wing one party state, and we all know from history how that ends.

 

[George Hannah]

We already have large scale civil unrest, mass strikes and picketing, violent demonstrations and major infrastructure disruption under this government. Is that a Marxist plot? Or just incompetence from the worst government in living memory. They are also trying to gerrymander constituencies to aspire towards a one party Tory state, they aspire to be democratic but release propaganda around voting fraud in order to take away voting rights, they have removed access to justice for many less well off people, none of which is democratic. This is the way totalitarian regimes are established, we have one now where the future PM seems willing to over ride Parliament in order to get his required outcome and you think that's democratic.

That is the danger of comparison, until you think it through you do not realise the rabbit hole you are going down. It now appears you are the supporter of the one party state as long as its a right wing one party state, and we all know from history how that ends.

The threat of Boris would be seen off very quickly in a general election with a Labour Party rescued from the control of the current extremist cabal.